Debian Bug report logs - #819664
Re-organise the CD / download pages to make them more useful

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Message #5 received at submit@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Steve McIntyre <steve@einval.com>

To: submit@bugs.debian.org

Subject: Re-organise the CD / download pages to make them more useful

Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 18:09:48 +0100

Package: www.debian.org
Severity: important

As pointed out in

  https://lists.debian.org/msgid-search/201603301121.25333.lisi.reisz@gmail.com

, we may be giving links to download ISO images but we're not giving
*any* useful information about the checksums and signatures for those
images in pages like

  https://www.debian.org/releases/stable/debian-installer/

As we're trying to educate users to verify their downloads more, we
really need to do better here. For many (most?) people that page is
already a wall of text, so just adding more stuff there won't help.

>From other discussions with users in debian-user and elsewhere, I
think we actually have *too many* pages describing how to download
ISOs etc., and it's becoming a pain to keep up with them all and keep
them all updated in sync. It's very easy for people to find
outdated/misleading/confusing pages that put them off.

So, I'd like to suggest a new, much simplified strategy:

 * *Remove* the direct link on the front page to the multi-arch
   netinst I'd argue that we *don't* need a direct link on the front
   page, and it's a dis-service to users who may download it and then
   not know what to do to verify etc.

 * Replace that link with a link to a simple "Download" page which
   gives *simple* instructions and links. This would be similar to
   what we have at https://www.debian.org/distrib/ , but we also need
   to re-org that page and make it prettier and clearer, add some
   graphics etc.:

    Download Debian
    ===============

    Debian is [ ... ]

    	 GRAPHIC 1    	      		    GRAPHIC 2
	 (picture of installer)		    (picture of desktop)
      * Download installer		* Download live image
        ==================             	  ===================
	+ (link to m-a netinst?)	  + link to favoured 64-bit image
      	+ link to 64-bit netinst	  + link to favoured 32-bit image
 	+ link to 32-bit netinst
	+ more... (link to page with     + more... (link to page with
	  more architecture options,	   more architecture options,
	  download options, etc.)          download options, etc.)

                                  (CENTERED, in a box?)
 	      	       GRAPHIC 3
	               (picture of checksums / padlock etc.)
                      * Verify your download
                        ====================
                        (simple rationale and instructions,
                         link to page with more details)

        GRAPHIC 4                         GRAPHIC 5
	(picture of USB stick)		  (picture of CD/DVD media)
      * How to write to USB             * How to write to optical media
        ===================               =============================
        (simple instructions,		  (simple instructions,
         link to pages with more	   link to pages with more
	 details)      	    		   details)

 * Re-organise all the other pages to act as the subsidiary pages
   mentioned here, removing the redundancy that's biting us and
   hurting users.

Thoughts?

-- 
Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK.                                steve@einval.com
"... the premise [is] that privacy is about hiding a wrong. It's not.
 Privacy is an inherent human right, and a requirement for maintaining
 the human condition with dignity and respect."
  -- Bruce Schneier

Message #10 received at 819664@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Laura Arjona Reina <larjona@debian.org>

To: Steve McIntyre <steve@einval.com>, 819664@bugs.debian.org

Subject: Re: Bug#819664: Re-organise the CD / download pages to make them more useful

Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 20:14:59 +0200

El 31/03/16 a las 19:09, Steve McIntyre escribió:
> Package: www.debian.org
> Severity: important
> 
> 
>  * Replace that link with a link to a simple "Download" page which
>    gives *simple* instructions and links. This would be similar to
>    what we have at https://www.debian.org/distrib/ , but we also need
>    to re-org that page and make it prettier and clearer, add some
>    graphics etc.:
> 
>     Download Debian
>     ===============
> 
>     Debian is [ ... ]
> 
>     	 GRAPHIC 1    	      		    GRAPHIC 2
> 	 (picture of installer)		    (picture of desktop)
>       * Download installer		* Download live image
>         ==================             	  ===================
> 	+ (link to m-a netinst?)	  + link to favoured 64-bit image
>       	+ link to 64-bit netinst	  + link to favoured 32-bit image
>  	+ link to 32-bit netinst
> 	+ more... (link to page with     + more... (link to page with
> 	  more architecture options,	   more architecture options,
> 	  download options, etc.)          download options, etc.)
> 
>                                   (CENTERED, in a box?)
>  	      	       GRAPHIC 3
> 	               (picture of checksums / padlock etc.)
>                       * Verify your download
>                         ====================
>                         (simple rationale and instructions,
>                          link to page with more details)
> 
>         GRAPHIC 4                         GRAPHIC 5
> 	(picture of USB stick)		  (picture of CD/DVD media)
>       * How to write to USB             * How to write to optical media
>         ===================               =============================
>         (simple instructions,		  (simple instructions,
>          link to pages with more	   link to pages with more
> 	 details)      	    		   details)
> 
>  * Re-organise all the other pages to act as the subsidiary pages
>    mentioned here, removing the redundancy that's biting us and
>    hurting users.
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
I like this proposal very much, and I'll put time to make it happen, if
others like it too.

Best regards

-- 
Laura Arjona Reina
https://wiki.debian.org/LauraArjona

Message #15 received at 819664@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net>

To: 819664@bugs.debian.org

Subject: Re: Re-organise the CD / download pages to make them more useful

Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 21:41:18 +0200

Hi,

some texts which should be considered:

> * Verify your download

https://www.debian.org/CD/verify
https://www.debian.org/CD/faq/#verify

> * How to write to USB 

https://www.debian.org/CD/faq/#write-usb

> * How to write to optical media

https://www.debian.org/CD/faq/#record-unix
https://www.debian.org/CD/faq/#record-windows
https://www.debian.org/CD/faq/#record-mac

The overhaul should already prepare for the announced demise
of MD5 and SHA1.


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

Message #20 received at 819664@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Paul Wise <pabs@debian.org>

To: Steve McIntyre <steve@einval.com>, 819664@bugs.debian.org, Adrian Gibanel <adrian15sgd@gmail.com>

Subject: Re: Bug#819664: Re-organise the CD / download pages to make them more useful

Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2016 12:33:49 +0800

On Fri, Apr 1, 2016 at 1:09 AM, Steve McIntyre wrote:

> Thoughts?

An overhaul of the getting Debian pages is indeed long overdue.

Adrian Gibanel had some great ideas about presentation of derivatives
stuff on the website, perhaps he has some about reorganising the
'getting Debian' section of the website. Adrian, the initial proposal
and discussion is available here:

https://bugs.debian.org/819664

I would drop mention of architectures and go with either the
multi-arch only ones 64-bit ones or an auto-detection system based on
User-Agent, JavaScript etc.

I would encourage a review of how the getting/download pages for other
operating systems (Windows/Mac/Android variants) and Free Software
distributions work.

Some ideas around verification and safety of getting Debian:

https://wiki.debian.org/Hardening/RepoAndImages

A couple of other sketches of how getting Debian pages could work:

http://get.debian.net/
http://debian-cd.debian.net/

There are some things that are missing from the getting Debian pages:

win32-loader
https://www.debian.org/blends/
https://wiki.debian.org/Cloud
https://wiki.debian.org/DebianHosting

Probably the FAQ could be eliminated by addressing most of the entries
in the text?

-- 
bye,
pabs

https://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise

Message #25 received at 819664@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net>

To: 819664@bugs.debian.org

Subject: Re: Re-organise the CD / download pages to make them more useful

Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2016 09:41:36 +0200

Hi,

is it considered a bug that

  http://get.debian.net/

only works with Javascript enabled ?
(If not a security risk, it is at least an annoyance to browse
 the general web with Javascript. All that blinking, popping, and
 driving up of CPU speed ...)


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

Message #30 received at 819664@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Steve McIntyre <steve@einval.com>

To: Paul Wise <pabs@debian.org>

Cc: 819664@bugs.debian.org, Adrian Gibanel <adrian15sgd@gmail.com>

Subject: Re: Bug#819664: Re-organise the CD / download pages to make them more useful

Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2016 10:51:30 +0100

On Fri, Apr 01, 2016 at 12:33:49PM +0800, Paul Wise wrote:
>On Fri, Apr 1, 2016 at 1:09 AM, Steve McIntyre wrote:
>
>> Thoughts?
>
>An overhaul of the getting Debian pages is indeed long overdue.
>
>Adrian Gibanel had some great ideas about presentation of derivatives
>stuff on the website, perhaps he has some about reorganising the
>'getting Debian' section of the website. Adrian, the initial proposal
>and discussion is available here:
>
>https://bugs.debian.org/819664
>
>I would drop mention of architectures and go with either the
>multi-arch only ones 64-bit ones or an auto-detection system based on
>User-Agent, JavaScript etc.

I'd rather keep it simple. We can't necessarily assume that the
machine somebody uses to visit the site is the machine they're
downloading an image for.

>I would encourage a review of how the getting/download pages for other
>operating systems (Windows/Mac/Android variants) and Free Software
>distributions work.
>
>Some ideas around verification and safety of getting Debian:
>
>https://wiki.debian.org/Hardening/RepoAndImages
>
>A couple of other sketches of how getting Debian pages could work:
>
>http://get.debian.net/
>http://debian-cd.debian.net/
>
>There are some things that are missing from the getting Debian pages:
>
>win32-loader
>https://www.debian.org/blends/
>https://wiki.debian.org/Cloud
>https://wiki.debian.org/DebianHosting
>
>Probably the FAQ could be eliminated by addressing most of the entries
>in the text?

Yes, I think so, but in subsidiary pages. I'd like to keep the *first*
download page as simple as possible, with the "more..." links for any
more details that people might want. For the same reason, I'd like to
concentrate on the most common arch/image types on the main page and
move other options to secondary pages.

-- 
Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK.                                steve@einval.com
We don't need no education.
We don't need no thought control.

Message #35 received at 819664@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: adrian15 <adrian15sgd@gmail.com>

To: Paul Wise <pabs@debian.org>, Steve McIntyre <steve@einval.com>, 819664@bugs.debian.org

Subject: Re: Bug#819664: Re-organise the CD / download pages to make them more useful

Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2016 00:11:47 +0200

El 01/04/16 a las 06:33, Paul Wise escribió:
> On Fri, Apr 1, 2016 at 1:09 AM, Steve McIntyre wrote:
>
>> Thoughts?
>
> An overhaul of the getting Debian pages is indeed long overdue.
>
> Adrian Gibanel had some great ideas about presentation of derivatives
> stuff on the website, perhaps he has some about reorganising the
> 'getting Debian' section of the website. Adrian, the initial proposal
> and discussion is available here:
>
> https://bugs.debian.org/819664

A)

  So, here there is my advice on how to reorganise 'getting Debian' ( 
https://www.debian.org/distrib/index.en.html ).

  Every advice I give on redesigning Debian webpage is based on 
dividing the page on a per-user or per-role basis. I will try to apply 
that policy into 'getting Debian' and trying to add the requested 
additional information about how to check your iso.

  I know that dividing the page on a per-user or per-role basis is not 
useful or convenient for every page but hopefully me trying to think 
outside the box will give you some ideas.

B)

  Some thoughts after reading what I have written as 'Getting Debian' 
page content.

  * The VERB + your + SOMETHING is a pun on the Starship Troopers film 
army/war ads. But, anyways, I feel something similar is needed to link 
each of the steps and make the reader think he is reading a well thought 
guide and not just unconnected steps put together.

  * I have left many other roles (datacenter sysadmin, cloud sysadmin) 
because I think that with three examples you get the idea.

  * You can see how the newbies (Newcomer - Installing it, Computer 
Sysadmin - Newbie) get an installation disk with an specific flavour 
(maybe you just need to give them netinst too? I don't know.)  The 
"Computer Sysadmin - Advanced" gets a netinst image as you might expect.

    This is probably the thing that needs the most to be fixed with the 
current scenario where someone who visits: debian.org gets a link to a 
netinst image while not being clear if they need that media at all or not.

  * You can see that each one of the options do not end on the usual 
"How to burn into CD" or even "How to boot" but try to get people 
involved somehow into Debian.

  * Not sure if it would be better to advice to check the Blends in the 
first place for the "Computer System - Newbie" just in case one of them 
fits his needs.

  * Cloud sysadmin would probably get directed to Cloud based (Amazon, 
Azure, ...) base downloads.

  * Datacenter sysadmin would probably get many downloads offered.

  * About the reusing data (which it's what Steve McIntyre was 
complaining) I guess I would use "include pages" for each one of the 
steps which are duplicated in each of the roles so that we don't have to 
maintain (n roles) times (m steps).

  *   I have invented some pages/terms which probably don't exist in 
actual Debian (website), or maybe they exist but I don't know which are 
their proper names.



C) Possible 'Getting Debian' page content:


  Debian is for everyone. We will try to guide you to get the best 
media of Debian for you. Please choose your profile / role.

Newcomer - First Contact / Newcomer - Installing it / Computer Sysadmin 
- Newbie / Computer Sysadmin - Advanced

  Newcomer - First contact
  =========================

  NEF.0. Know your Debian Live.
         A Debian Live image lets you try Debian in RAM without ... . 
That way you can check if it fits your needs.
  NEF.1. Download your ISO.
         A 32-bit image is probably only need with computers prior to 
2005? . Whenever possible please try the 64-bit image.
         + link to Debian Live favoured 64-bit image
         + link to Debian Live favoured 32-bit image
  NEF.2. Check your ISO.
        This step ensures the ISO you have downloaded is ok. In order 
to verify your download you have to...
  NEF.3. Burn your ISO.
        That big file needs to be put into a DVD or an USB. Here we 
show you how.
  NEF.4. Boot your ISO.
        In order to boot a Debian Live you don't usually need to do 
anything in most recent PCs. However if your previous OSes boot you 
probably need to press F8,...
  NEF. 5. Enjoy your ISO.
        We recommend you to discover the most used and famous Debian 
programs on the Debian Live thanks to our "Discover famous Debian 
programs" page.
  NEF. 6. Become a Debianer!
        Do you enjoy Debian Live but you would like to use it in daily 
basis without using a Debian Live CD or Debian Live USB. Install it on 
your computer. Please check: "Newcomer - Installing it".


  Newcomer - Installing it
  =========================

  NEI.0. Know your Debian Live.
         You don't know what's Debian yet? You might want to test it 
first thanks to a Debian Live image which works without touching your 
hard disk. Please check: "Newcomer - First contact".
  NEI.1. Download your ISO.
         A 32-bit image is probably only need with computers prior to 
2005? . Whenever possible please try the 64-bit image.
         + link to Debian Install favoured 64-bit image
         + link to Debian Install favoured 32-bit image
  NEI.2. Check your ISO.
        This step ensures the ISO you have downloaded is ok. In order 
to verify your download you have to...
  NEF.3. Burn your ISO.
        That big file needs to be put into a DVD or an USB. Here we 
show you how.
  NEI.4. Boot your ISO.
        In order to boot a Debian Installation Disk you don't usually 
need to do anything in most recent PCs. However if your previous OSes 
boot you probably need to press F8,...
  NEI. 5. Install your ISO.
        Installing Debian as a single Operating System for your 
computer is rather simple. If you need additional help on this help you 
can check our tour "Installing Debian".
  NEI. 6. Enjoy your Debian
        We recommend you to discover the most used and famous Debian 
programs on the Debian Live thanks to our "Discover famous Debian 
programs" page.
  NEI. 7. Become a Debianer!
        Do you enjoy Debian? There's a community out there which needs 
your help. Check how you can help by checking our: "Debian - Our 
community" page.


  Computer Sysadmin - Newbie
  ===========================

  CSN.0. Know your Debian
         You don't know what's Debian yet? We recommend you to test it 
in a virtual machine prior to install to a phisical machine. Please 
check: "Debian support on virtualisation systems".
  CSN.1. Download your ISO.
         A 32-bit image is probably only need with computers prior to 
2005? . Whenever possible please try the 64-bit image.
         + link to Debian Install favoured 64-bit image
         + link to Debian Install favoured 32-bit image
  CSN.2. Check your ISO.
        This step ensures the ISO you have downloaded is ok. In order 
to verify your download you have to...
  CSN.3. Burn your ISO.
        That big file needs to be put into a DVD or an USB. Here we 
show you how.
  CSN.4. Boot your ISO.
        In order to boot a Debian Installation Disk you don't usually 
need to do anything in most recent PCs. However if your previous OSes 
boot you probably need to press F8,...
  CSN. 5. Install your ISO.
        Installing Debian as a single Operating System for your 
computer is rather simple. If you need additional help on this help you 
can check our tour "Installing Debian".
  CSN. 6. Enjoy your Debian
        As per your technical role we recommend you to discover the 
different blends of Debian which can be applied to normal Debian 
installation thanks to its metapackages.
  CSN. 7. Become a Debianer!
        Do you enjoy Debian? There's a community out there which needs 
your help. Check how you can help by checking our: "Debian - Our 
community" page.

  Computer Sysadmin - Advanced
  ============================

  CSA.0. Know your Debian
         You don't know what's Debian yet? We recommend you to test it 
in a virtual machine prior to install to a phisical machine. Please 
check: "Debian support on virtualisation systems".
  CSA.1. Download your ISO.
         A 32-bit image is probably only need with computers prior to 
2005? . Whenever possible please try the 64-bit image.
         + link to netinst 64-bit image
         + link to netinst 32-bit image
  CSA.2. Check your ISO.
        This step ensures the ISO you have downloaded is ok. In order 
to verify your download you have to...
  CSA.3. Burn your ISO.
        That big file needs to be put into a DVD or an USB. Here we 
show you how.
  CSA.4. Boot your ISO.
        In order to boot a Debian Installation Disk you don't usually 
need to do anything in most recent PCs. However if your previous OSes 
boot you probably need to press F8,...
  CSA. 5. Install your ISO.
        Installing Debian as a single Operating System for your 
computer is rather simple. If you need additional help on this help you 
can check our tour "Installing Debian".
  CSA. 6. Enjoy your Debian
        As per your technical role we recommend you to discover the 
different blends of Debian which can be applied to normal Debian 
installation thanks to its metapackages.
  CSA. 7. Become a Debianer!
        Do you enjoy Debian? There's a community out there which needs 
your help. Check how you can help by checking our: "Debian - Our 
community" page



adrian15
-- 
Support free software. Donate to Super Grub Disk. Apoya el software 
libre. Dona a Super Grub Disk. http://www.supergrubdisk.org/donate/

Message #40 received at 819664@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Steve McIntyre <steve@einval.com>

To: Laura Arjona Reina <larjona@debian.org>

Cc: 819664@bugs.debian.org

Subject: Re: Bug#819664: Re-organise the CD / download pages to make them more useful

Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2016 17:03:42 +0100

Hey Laura,

On Thu, Mar 31, 2016 at 08:14:59PM +0200, Laura Arjona Reina wrote:
>El 31/03/16 a las 19:09, Steve McIntyre escribió:

...

>> 
>>  * Replace that link with a link to a simple "Download" page which
>>    gives *simple* instructions and links. This would be similar to
>>    what we have at https://www.debian.org/distrib/ , but we also need
>>    to re-org that page and make it prettier and clearer, add some
>>    graphics etc.:

...

>> Thoughts?
>> 
>I like this proposal very much, and I'll put time to make it happen, if
>others like it too.

It's been a while, and I'd like to move on with this. Do you have the
time to help, please?

-- 
Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK.                                steve@einval.com
  Getting a SCSI chain working is perfectly simple if you remember that there
  must be exactly three terminations: one on one end of the cable, one on the
  far end, and the goat, terminated over the SCSI chain with a silver-handled
  knife whilst burning *black* candles. --- Anthony DeBoer

Message #45 received at 819664@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Laura Arjona Reina <larjona@debian.org>

To: Steve McIntyre <steve@einval.com>, 819664@bugs.debian.org

Subject: Re: Bug#819664: Re-organise the CD / download pages to make them more useful

Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2016 12:31:09 +0200

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

Hi

El 17/07/16 a las 18:03, Steve McIntyre escribió:
> Hey Laura,
> 
> On Thu, Mar 31, 2016 at 08:14:59PM +0200, Laura Arjona Reina wrote:
>> El 31/03/16 a las 19:09, Steve McIntyre escribió:
> 
> ...
> 
>>>
>>>  * Replace that link with a link to a simple "Download" page which
>>>    gives *simple* instructions and links. This would be similar to
>>>    what we have at https://www.debian.org/distrib/ , but we also need
>>>    to re-org that page and make it prettier and clearer, add some
>>>    graphics etc.:
> 
> ...
> 
>>> Thoughts?
>>>
>> I like this proposal very much, and I'll put time to make it happen, if
>> others like it too.
> 
> It's been a while, and I'd like to move on with this. Do you have the
> time to help, please?
> 

I have created a CVS branch called new_download in the english folder
of the CVS repo to work on this.

In that branch, I have created a "download" folder under the "english"
folder with a Makefile and index.wml

I'm attaching the index.wml in its current state to this email for
people to be able to review it without checking out the whole branch.

It still needs work in the last 3 steps (verify, write to usb, write
to cd).

For what I have read, you can checkout, update and work in the branch
just adding "-r new_download" to your cvs commands.

I'll go on working on this, and try to reuse the wording of the
current pages, inserting comments to translators, so when the page is
complete, translations are easy to do.

When more or less the text is ready, I'll try to get -l10n-english and
-designers in the loop for improving the page, and I'll go on working
on the subsequent pages (same strategy: get the text trying to reuse
from the current pages, etc).

Finally, if we agree to put in production this, we should need to
* change the homepage so the "Download Debian" button points to this,
* probably remove paragraphs or whole pages under /CD or /distrib, or
rewrite them
* get the corresponding redirects in Apache where needed (if we remove
some pages, redirect to the new ones, etc).

Please let me know your ideas or if I'm understanding or doing
something wrong (or it can be improved in some way).

Cheers

-- 
Laura Arjona Reina
https://wiki.debian.org/LauraArjona

[index.wml (text/vnd.wap.wml, attachment)]

Message #50 received at 819664@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Laura Arjona Reina <larjona@debian.org>

To: Steve McIntyre <steve@einval.com>, 819664@bugs.debian.org

Subject: Re: Bug#819664: Re-organise the CD / download pages to make them more useful

Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2016 18:24:43 +0200

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

Hi

I have added the pending sections to the index.wml file, and committed
to the branch.
I'm attaching the file in its current state, too.

It still needs work, in particular, add some paragraph at the end
linking to the old folders/files, for example for people looking for
non stable releases, or other achitectures.

The page english/CD/verify.wml also needs some review and completion;
link to tools to verify images in different operating systems, and
maybe offer the SHA512SUM files and its signature along with the
downloads, because people won't know in which subfolder they are.

Cheers

-- 
Laura Arjona Reina
https://wiki.debian.org/LauraArjona

[index.wml (text/vnd.wap.wml, attachment)]

Message #55 received at 819664@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Stéphane Blondon <stephane.blondon@gmail.com>

To: 819664@bugs.debian.org

Subject: patch on index.wml

Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2016 15:55:53 +0200

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

In order to simplify the choice for the user, I suggest to provide a
link to dual architecture 32 & 64bits if it's possible instead of one
link for 32bits and another one for 64bits.


There is a .diff attached to this message based on the Laura's index.wml
to do it on installation CDs.

-- 
Stéphane

[index.diff (text/x-patch, attachment)]

[signature.asc (application/pgp-signature, attachment)]

Message #60 received at 819664@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: "Eduard Bloch" <bloch@unix-ag.uni-kl.de>

To: 819664@bugs.debian.org

Subject: .sign suffix?

Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2016 17:57:15 +0200

Hello,

I am slightly wondering about this new filename ending .sign. IMHO the
usual pattern for such files was .gpg before (for example: Release.gpg).

This .sign looks weird, it does not tell you which format the data
inside might have.

Please reconsider the filenames.

Regards,
Eduard.

Message #65 received at 819664@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Stéphane Blondon <stephane.blondon@gmail.com>

To: Eduard Bloch <bloch@unix-ag.uni-kl.de>, 819664@bugs.debian.org

Subject: Re: Bug#819664: .sign suffix?

Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2016 09:10:37 +0200

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Hello,

Le 25/09/2016 à 17:57, Eduard Bloch a écrit :
> I am slightly wondering about this new filename ending .sign. IMHO the
> usual pattern for such files was .gpg before (for example: Release.gpg).
> 
> This .sign looks weird, it does not tell you which format the data
> inside might have.

Can you provide an example where the extension has changed?

There are signatures ending with .sign for each cd, dvd, etc. images but
the suffix seems to be always .sign since release 3.1:
http://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/archive/3.1_r0/i386/iso-cd/

it's like today:
http://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/8.6.0/amd64/iso-cd/

The scheme is
{MD5, SHAx}SUMS : the checksum according to each algorithm
{MD5, SHAx}SUMS.sign : the checksum signed by a Debian CD signing key

Do you talk about other signatures?

-- 
Stéphane

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Message #70 received at 819664@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Steve McIntyre <steve@einval.com>

To: Stéphane Blondon <stephane.blondon@gmail.com>, 819664@bugs.debian.org

Cc: Eduard Bloch <bloch@unix-ag.uni-kl.de>

Subject: Re: Bug#819664: .sign suffix?

Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2016 15:14:21 +0100

On Mon, Sep 26, 2016 at 09:10:37AM +0200, Stéphane Blondon wrote:
>Hello,
>
>Le 25/09/2016 à 17:57, Eduard Bloch a écrit :
>> I am slightly wondering about this new filename ending .sign. IMHO the
>> usual pattern for such files was .gpg before (for example: Release.gpg).
>> 
>> This .sign looks weird, it does not tell you which format the data
>> inside might have.
>
>Can you provide an example where the extension has changed?
>
>There are signatures ending with .sign for each cd, dvd, etc. images but
>the suffix seems to be always .sign since release 3.1:
>http://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/archive/3.1_r0/i386/iso-cd/
>
>it's like today:
>http://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/8.6.0/amd64/iso-cd/
>
>The scheme is
>{MD5, SHAx}SUMS : the checksum according to each algorithm
>{MD5, SHAx}SUMS.sign : the checksum signed by a Debian CD signing key

Exactly - we've been using the .sign filenames for many years for CD
releases.

-- 
Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK.                                steve@einval.com
You lock the door
And throw away the key
There's someone in my head but it's not me 

Message #75 received at 819664@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Eduard Bloch <edi@gmx.de>

To: 819664@bugs.debian.org

Subject: Re: Bug#819664: .sign suffix?

Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2016 23:57:32 +0200

Hallo,
* Steve McIntyre [Mon, Sep 26 2016, 03:14:21PM]:
> On Mon, Sep 26, 2016 at 09:10:37AM +0200, Stéphane Blondon wrote:
> >Hello,
> >
> >Le 25/09/2016 à 17:57, Eduard Bloch a écrit :
> >> I am slightly wondering about this new filename ending .sign. IMHO the
> >> usual pattern for such files was .gpg before (for example: Release.gpg).
> >> 
> >> This .sign looks weird, it does not tell you which format the data
> >> inside might have.
> >
> >Can you provide an example where the extension has changed?
> >
> >There are signatures ending with .sign for each cd, dvd, etc. images but
> >the suffix seems to be always .sign since release 3.1:
> >http://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/archive/3.1_r0/i386/iso-cd/
> >
> >it's like today:
> >http://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/8.6.0/amd64/iso-cd/
> >
> >The scheme is
> >{MD5, SHAx}SUMS : the checksum according to each algorithm
> >{MD5, SHAx}SUMS.sign : the checksum signed by a Debian CD signing key
> 
> Exactly - we've been using the .sign filenames for many years for CD
> releases.

Uhm, ok, sorry, please forgive my failure to research.

Best regards,
Eduard.

Message #80 received at 819664@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Laura Arjona Reina <larjona@debian.org>

To: scriptjunkie@scriptjunkie.us,819664@bugs.debian.org

Cc: debian-mirrors@lists.debian.org

Subject: Re: Suggestions to update the https://www.debian.org/CD/ page

Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2017 21:20:14 +0200

Hi 
I'm resending this suggestion to the bug that is currently open to work on the CD section of the website (#819664) so it doesn't get lost.

Thanks
Laura Arjona Reina
https://wiki.debian.org/LauraArjona

Message #85 received at 819664@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Laura Arjona Reina <larjona@debian.org>

To: scriptjunkie@scriptjunkie.us,819664@bugs.debian.org

Cc: debian-mirrors@lists.debian.org

Subject: Re: Suggestions to update the https://www.debian.org/CD/ page

Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2017 21:44:40 +0200

Resending now, actually. 
Laura Arjona Reina
https://wiki.debian.org/LauraArjona

-- Original message --

    To: debian-mirrors@lists.debian.org
    Subject: Suggestions to update the https://www.debian.org/CD/ page
    From: Matt Weeks <scriptjunkie@scriptjunkie.us>
    Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 17:23:05 -0500
    Message-id: <[🔎] CANu7QV7hTETPtrkK5jP=VxbNkhjGsXJSB6=VQz0QCw=QCtthGg@mail.gmail.com>

The https://www.debian.org/CD/ page seems a bit outdated. Is there someone here who can update it?


I'd suggest changing

"Due to space and bandwidth constraints, only very few mirrors are able to supply direct HTTP/FTP download links. These sites may use bandwidth throttling, downloads can be quite slow. Please use jigdo or bittorrent instead. DVD images are only available for some architectures and not on all mirrors."

 

To:

"Many mirrors supply direct HTTP download links you can download with your browser."

And moving it to the top.


It is no longer true that few mirrors can serve HTTP; there’s 182 mirrors serving. The FTP links have been removed. I would also remove the bit about bandwidth throttling. I would be surprised if many of these mirrors still do bandwidth throttling, at least in my unscientific downloads from a few randomly selected mirrors, I don’t seem to notice any very slow downloads.

 

Broadband penetration has also dramatically increased, statistics in nearly all the countries as I can find show that most users with internet access (that can view this page) will also have broadband. E.g. Pew says 84% of U.S. households own a computer, and 73% of households have broadband. China Daily says Chinese speeds average 9.46 Mb/s. So I do not believe it is appropriate any more to put the best option for dial-up at the top of the page. And while there’s nothing wrong with jigdo or bittorrent, it will probably take the average user more time to download, install, and open jigdo than to simply download the iso from their closest mirror in their browser using the auto mirror selector.

 

Speaking of that, the automatic mirror selector has been working for over a year now, so perhaps we should drop the “experimental” label and make it the default as well. I do not think it is used for the iso links on https://www.debian.org/distrib/ ? Do we plan to use it there?


Thanks,

Matt

Message #90 received at 819664@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Stéphane Blondon <stephane.blondon@gmail.com>

To: larjona@debian.org, 819664@bugs.debian.org, scriptjunkie@scriptjunkie.us

Cc: debian-mirrors@lists.debian.org

Subject: Re: Bug#819664: Suggestions to update the https://www.debian.org/CD/ page

Date: Wed, 3 May 2017 17:20:36 +0200

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

> -- Original message --
> 
>     To: debian-mirrors@lists.debian.org
>     Subject: Suggestions to update the https://www.debian.org/CD/ page
>     From: Matt Weeks <scriptjunkie@scriptjunkie.us>
> The https://www.debian.org/CD/ page seems a bit outdated. Is there someone here who can update it?
> 
> 
> I'd suggest changing
> 
> "Due to space and bandwidth constraints, only very few mirrors are able to supply direct HTTP/FTP download links. These sites may use bandwidth throttling, downloads can be quite slow. Please use jigdo or bittorrent instead. DVD images are only available for some architectures and not on all mirrors."
> 
> 
> To:
> 
> "Many mirrors supply direct HTTP download links you can download with your browser."


Does someone disagrees about this change?
If no one objects, I plan to commit the change this week-end.



> 
> Broadband penetration has also dramatically increased, statistics in nearly all the countries as I can find show that most users with internet access (that can view this page) will also have broadband. E.g. Pew says 84% of U.S. households own a computer, and 73% of households have broadband. China Daily says Chinese speeds average 9.46 Mb/s. So I do not believe it is appropriate any more to put the best option for dial-up at the top of the page. And while there’s nothing wrong with jigdo or bittorrent, it will probably take the average user more time to download, install, and open jigdo than to simply download the iso from their closest mirror in their browser using the auto mirror selector.
> 
>  
> 
> Speaking of that, the automatic mirror selector has been working for over a year now, so perhaps we should drop the “experimental” label and make it the default as well. I do not think it is used for the iso links on https://www.debian.org/distrib/ ? Do we plan to use it there?

I have no idea about this point.

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Message #95 received at 819664@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Stéphane Blondon <stephane.blondon@gmail.com>

To: 819664@bugs.debian.org, scriptjunkie@scriptjunkie.us

Cc: debian-mirrors@lists.debian.org

Subject: Re: Bug#819664: Suggestions to update the https://www.debian.org/CD/ page

Date: Sat, 6 May 2017 16:15:02 +0200

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

Le 03/05/2017 à 17:20, Stéphane Blondon a écrit :
> 
> 
>> -- Original message --
>>
>>     To: debian-mirrors@lists.debian.org
>>     Subject: Suggestions to update the https://www.debian.org/CD/ page
>>     From: Matt Weeks <scriptjunkie@scriptjunkie.us>
>> The https://www.debian.org/CD/ page seems a bit outdated. Is there someone here who can update it?
>>
>>
>> I'd suggest changing
>>
>> "Due to space and bandwidth constraints, only very few mirrors are able to supply direct HTTP/FTP download links. These sites may use bandwidth throttling, downloads can be quite slow. Please use jigdo or bittorrent instead. DVD images are only available for some architectures and not on all mirrors."
>>
>>
>> To:
>>
>> "Many mirrors supply direct HTTP download links you can download with your browser."


I committed this sentence:

'Many mirrors supply direct HTTP download links you can download with
your browser or command line tool.'

because the detailed page (https://www.debian.org/CD/http-ftp/) advices
the use of tool that supports resuming.

The update will be visible in few hours.


>> Broadband penetration has also dramatically increased, statistics in nearly all the countries as I can find show that most users with internet access (that can view this page) will also have broadband. E.g. Pew says 84% of U.S. households own a computer, and 73% of households have broadband. China Daily says Chinese speeds average 9.46 Mb/s. So I do not believe it is appropriate any more to put the best option for dial-up at the top of the page. And while there’s nothing wrong with jigdo or bittorrent, it will probably take the average user more time to download, install, and open jigdo than to simply download the iso from their closest mirror in their browser using the auto mirror selector.
>>
>>  
>>
>> Speaking of that, the automatic mirror selector has been working for over a year now, so perhaps we should drop the “experimental” label and make it the default as well. I do not think it is used for the iso links on https://www.debian.org/distrib/ ? Do we plan to use it there?

I didn't close the bug because I don't know what the automatic selection
status is.


Stéphane

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