Debian Bug report logs - #804315
ITP: live-wrapper -- live image wrapper for vmdebootstrap

Package: wnpp; Maintainer for wnpp is wnpp@debian.org;

Reported by: "Iain R. Learmonth" <irl@debian.org>

Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2015 09:21:01 UTC

Owned by: "Iain R. Learmonth" <irl@debian.org>

Severity: wishlist

Fixed in version live-wrapper/0.1

Done: irl@debian.org (Iain R. Learmonth)

Bug is archived. No further changes may be made.

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Report forwarded to debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org, debian-devel@lists.debian.org, vmdebootstrap-devel@lists.alioth.debian.org, wnpp@debian.org:
Bug#804315; Package wnpp. (Sat, 07 Nov 2015 09:21:06 GMT) (full text, mbox, link).

Acknowledgement sent to "Iain R. Learmonth" <irl@debian.org>:
New Bug report received and forwarded. Copy sent to debian-devel@lists.debian.org, vmdebootstrap-devel@lists.alioth.debian.org, wnpp@debian.org. (Sat, 07 Nov 2015 09:21:06 GMT) (full text, mbox, link).

Message #5 received at submit@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

Package: wnpp
Severity: wishlist
Owner: "Iain R. Learmonth" <irl@debian.org>

* Package name    : live-build-ng
  Version         : 0.1
  Upstream Author : VMDebootstrap List <vmdebootstrap-devel@lists.alioth.debian.org>
* License         : BSD-2-clause
  Programming Lang: Python
  Description     : live image builder built on vmdebootstrap

live-build-ng is a wrapper around vmdebootstrap to install a live Debian
system into an ISO image, which can be used by booting from optical media or a
USB device.

isolinux and grub2 bootloaders can be supported, depending on the distribution
and the architecture.

This package also includes documentation on using live-build-ng to create live
images.

Information forwarded to debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org, wnpp@debian.org, "Iain R. Learmonth" <irl@debian.org>:
Bug#804315; Package wnpp. (Sat, 07 Nov 2015 09:42:03 GMT) (full text, mbox, link).

Acknowledgement sent to daniel.baumann@progress-technologies.com:
Extra info received and forwarded to list. Copy sent to wnpp@debian.org, "Iain R. Learmonth" <irl@debian.org>. (Sat, 07 Nov 2015 09:42:03 GMT) (full text, mbox, link).

Message #10 received at 804315@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

Hi Ian,

nice to see you're interested in live-* stuff. however, please consider
renaming this package (and also src:live-support), it invades/hijacks
the Debian Live namespace.

I'm sure you can come up with a suitable namespace on your own, e.g.
vmdebootstrap-live and vmdebootstrap-live-support or something like that).

Regards,
Daniel

Acknowledgement sent to Neil Williams <codehelp@debian.org>:
Extra info received and forwarded to list. Copy sent to wnpp@debian.org, "Iain R. Learmonth" <irl@debian.org>. (Sat, 07 Nov 2015 11:36:04 GMT) (full text, mbox, link).

Message #15 received at 804315@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

On Sat, 07 Nov 2015 10:40:36 +0100
Daniel Baumann <daniel.baumann@progress-technologies.com> wrote:

> Hi Ian,
> 
> nice to see you're interested in live-* stuff. however, please
> consider renaming this package (and also src:live-support), it
> invades/hijacks the Debian Live namespace.

There is an explicit reason for this. vmdebootstrap is being extended
explicitly to provide support for a replacement for live-build. This
work is happening within the debian-cd team to be able to solve the
existing problems with live-build. These problems include reliability
issues, lack of multiple architecture support and lack of UEFI support.
vmdebootstrap has all of these, we do use support from live-boot and
live-config as these are out of the scope for vmdebootstrap.

It is also helpful that live-build-ng is written in python.

> I'm sure you can come up with a suitable namespace on your own, e.g.
> vmdebootstrap-live and vmdebootstrap-live-support or something like
> that).

The objective is that debian-cd builds official Debian Live images
without using live-build, using vmdebootstrap live support and
live-build-ng instead.

This work began at Debconf15 and has been extended in the vmdebootstrap
sprint at the miniDebConfUK. Iain demonstrated a working Live image
with UEFI built using vmdebootstrap and the work is set to continue.

-- 

Neil Williams
=============
http://www.linux.codehelp.co.uk/

[Message part 2 (application/pgp-signature, inline)]

Message #20 received at 804315@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

On 11/07/2015 12:33 PM, Neil Williams wrote:
> There is an explicit reason for this. vmdebootstrap is being extended
> explicitly to provide support for a replacement for live-build. This
> work is happening within the debian-cd team to be able to solve the
> existing problems with live-build.

looks like a secret plan to me. I and nobody to my knowledge of
debian-live has heard anything about that at all, nor has there been any
information about this intention being posted to
debian-live@lists.debian.org.

also nobody of the vmdebootstrap involved people has mentioned this to
me or the audience on this years debconf in the various talks and bofhs
where image building was the topic and i was present.

> The objective is that debian-cd builds official Debian Live images
> without using live-build, using vmdebootstrap live support and
> live-build-ng instead.

oh, ok. I see.

when we agreed that the official live-images are built on petterson, we
did exactly that - we delegated only the "execution" of our build system
over to debian-cd, not the "authority" to decide which/how images are
built or built with.

but given the situation, i understand that argueing about this hijack is
futile then.

it would have been more honest to actually talk to us (we're doing this
since almost 10 years now), and take over live-* packages directly,
rathern than to uploading -ng versions of them.

So long and thanks for all the fish,
Daniel

Information forwarded to debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org, wnpp@debian.org, "Iain R. Learmonth" <irl@debian.org>:
Bug#804315; Package wnpp. (Sun, 08 Nov 2015 13:15:04 GMT) (full text, mbox, link).

Acknowledgement sent to Fathi Boudra <fabo@debian.org>:
Extra info received and forwarded to list. Copy sent to wnpp@debian.org, "Iain R. Learmonth" <irl@debian.org>. (Sun, 08 Nov 2015 13:15:04 GMT) (full text, mbox, link).

Message #25 received at 804315@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

On Sat, Nov 7, 2015 at 1:33 PM, Neil Williams <codehelp@debian.org> wrote:
> On Sat, 07 Nov 2015 10:40:36 +0100
> Daniel Baumann <daniel.baumann@progress-technologies.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi Ian,
>>
>> nice to see you're interested in live-* stuff. however, please
>> consider renaming this package (and also src:live-support), it
>> invades/hijacks the Debian Live namespace.
>
> There is an explicit reason for this. vmdebootstrap is being extended
> explicitly to provide support for a replacement for live-build.

It's also hostile to an existing project and give the impression that
live-build is obsolete/deprecated/unmaintained.

> This work is happening within the debian-cd team to be able to solve the
> existing problems with live-build. These problems include reliability
> issues, lack of multiple architecture support and lack of UEFI support.
> vmdebootstrap has all of these, we do use support from live-boot and
> live-config as these are out of the scope for vmdebootstrap.

Which reliability issues precisely and where have they been discussed
publicly or even reported?
Lack of multiple architecture support? I'm using it successfully and
reliably on i386/amd64/armhf/arm64 architectures.
Can you expand on the missing UEFI support or provide some pointer on
what vmdebootstrap does? There's live-build users using UEFI with
live-build.

> It is also helpful that live-build-ng is written in python.

fwiw, live-* 5.x is re-written in python.

>> I'm sure you can come up with a suitable namespace on your own, e.g.
>> vmdebootstrap-live and vmdebootstrap-live-support or something like
>> that).
>
> The objective is that debian-cd builds official Debian Live images
> without using live-build, using vmdebootstrap live support and
> live-build-ng instead.
>
> This work began at Debconf15 and has been extended in the vmdebootstrap
> sprint at the miniDebConfUK. Iain demonstrated a working Live image
> with UEFI built using vmdebootstrap and the work is set to continue.

Acknowledgement sent to "Michael ." <keltoiboy@gmail.com>:
Extra info received and forwarded to list. Copy sent to wnpp@debian.org, "Iain R. Learmonth" <irl@debian.org>. (Sun, 08 Nov 2015 21:30:06 GMT) (full text, mbox, link).

Message #30 received at 804315@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

For what its worth I tried to do a clean Jessie-Live install last week and
it didn't install because my PC is UEFI. I then downloaded a regular Debian
Jessie DVD  (and even a Wheezy CD) and they both installed on my UEFI
system without any problems. If there are Jessie Live DVDs that will
install onto UEFI (not hybrid UEFI/Legacy) systems it would be very helpful
if there was some up to date documentation on it.

With regards to the other matter that this topic was initiated about I,
personally, feel instead of starting a new project the group from the new
project would be much better off assisting with an already well established
project.

On 9 November 2015 at 00:11, Fathi Boudra <fabo@debian.org> wrote:

> On Sat, Nov 7, 2015 at 1:33 PM, Neil Williams <codehelp@debian.org> wrote:
> > On Sat, 07 Nov 2015 10:40:36 +0100
> > Daniel Baumann <daniel.baumann@progress-technologies.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Hi Ian,
> >>
> >> nice to see you're interested in live-* stuff. however, please
> >> consider renaming this package (and also src:live-support), it
> >> invades/hijacks the Debian Live namespace.
> >
> > There is an explicit reason for this. vmdebootstrap is being extended
> > explicitly to provide support for a replacement for live-build.
>
> It's also hostile to an existing project and give the impression that
> live-build is obsolete/deprecated/unmaintained.
>
> > This work is happening within the debian-cd team to be able to solve the
> > existing problems with live-build. These problems include reliability
> > issues, lack of multiple architecture support and lack of UEFI support.
> > vmdebootstrap has all of these, we do use support from live-boot and
> > live-config as these are out of the scope for vmdebootstrap.
>
> Which reliability issues precisely and where have they been discussed
> publicly or even reported?
> Lack of multiple architecture support? I'm using it successfully and
> reliably on i386/amd64/armhf/arm64 architectures.
> Can you expand on the missing UEFI support or provide some pointer on
> what vmdebootstrap does? There's live-build users using UEFI with
> live-build.
>
> > It is also helpful that live-build-ng is written in python.
>
> fwiw, live-* 5.x is re-written in python.
>
> >> I'm sure you can come up with a suitable namespace on your own, e.g.
> >> vmdebootstrap-live and vmdebootstrap-live-support or something like
> >> that).
> >
> > The objective is that debian-cd builds official Debian Live images
> > without using live-build, using vmdebootstrap live support and
> > live-build-ng instead.
> >
> > This work began at Debconf15 and has been extended in the vmdebootstrap
> > sprint at the miniDebConfUK. Iain demonstrated a working Live image
> > with UEFI built using vmdebootstrap and the work is set to continue.
>
>

[Message part 2 (text/html, inline)]

Information forwarded to debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org, wnpp@debian.org:
Bug#804315; Package wnpp. (Sun, 08 Nov 2015 23:51:04 GMT) (full text, mbox, link).

Acknowledgement sent to "Iain R. Learmonth" <irl@debian.org>:
Extra info received and forwarded to list. Copy sent to wnpp@debian.org. (Sun, 08 Nov 2015 23:51:04 GMT) (full text, mbox, link).

Message #35 received at 804315@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

Hi,

It is worth noting that live-build is not a Debian project, it is an
external project that claims to be an official Debian project. This is
something that needs to be fixed.

There is no namespace issue, we are building on the existing live-config and
live-boot packages that are maintained and bringing these into Debian as
native projects. If necessary, these will be forks, but I'm hoping that
won't have to happen and that we can integrate these packages into Debian
and continue development in a collaborative manner.

live-build has been deprecated by debian-cd, and live-build-ng is
replacing it. In a purely Debian context at least, live-build is deprecated.
live-build-ng is being developed in collaboration with debian-cd and D-I.

I'm aware that I'm going to be upsetting people, but this has been a long
time coming and I'm not going to spend time bikeshedding over naming. I
would rather spend that time on integration of live image creation into
official Debian infrastructure and building the best system for live image
creation possible.

Consider this thread marked as wontfix.

Thanks,
Iain.

--

Information forwarded to debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org, wnpp@debian.org, "Iain R. Learmonth" <irl@debian.org>:
Bug#804315; Package wnpp. (Mon, 09 Nov 2015 00:21:04 GMT) (full text, mbox, link).

Acknowledgement sent to "Michael ." <keltoiboy@gmail.com>:
Extra info received and forwarded to list. Copy sent to wnpp@debian.org, "Iain R. Learmonth" <irl@debian.org>. (Mon, 09 Nov 2015 00:21:04 GMT) (full text, mbox, link).

Message #40 received at 804315@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

>It is worth noting that live-build is not a Debian project, it is an
>external project that claims to be an official Debian project. This is
>something that needs to be fixed.

This is a pretty big accusation. Considering Debian has Live images
available through its download page (https://www.debian.org/CD/) one can
only assume that Debian Live is an official part of the Debian project.

>There is no namespace issue, we are building on the existing live-config
and
>live-boot packages that are maintained and bringing these into Debian as
>native projects. If necessary, these will be forks, but I'm hoping that
>won't have to happen and that we can integrate these packages into Debian
>and continue development in a collaborative manner.

Actually there is and I think any person who works in a legal capacity
would verify that.
With regards to collaboration, considering this is the first many people
have heard of this it seems to me you have not gone out of your way to
integrate people who have been working on these packages into your project.
As I said in my previous response to the Debian Live list (which btw last
time someone used the word Debian in a unofficial capacity
(Debian-Mulitmedia) they were asked to stop I haven't seen any requests
like this to the Debian Live mailing list as yet) it would have been good
if "instead of starting a new project the group from the new project would
be much better off assisting with an already well established project

>live-build has been deprecated by debian-cd, and live-build-ng is
>replacing it. In a purely Debian context at least, live-build is
deprecated.
>live-build-ng is being developed in collaboration with debian-cd and D-I.

Just out of interests sake can you provide proof of this?

>I'm aware that I'm going to be upsetting people, but this has been a long
>time coming and I'm not going to spend time bikeshedding over naming. I
>would rather spend that time on integration of live image creation into
>official Debian infrastructure and building the best system for live image
>creation possible.

Methinks you should have spent time communicating with the people who have
spent years doing this already.

>Consider this thread marked as wontfix.

>Thanks,
>Iain.

You seem to be very intractable. No discussion, no change of heart, not
willing to discuss anything with people like Daniel who have been doing
this for years. If there has been correspondence from any part of Debian
and the team who are working on Debian-Live that shows this is not
something new and out of the blue I'll be very surprised.

Cheers.
Michael.

On 9 November 2015 at 10:45, Iain R. Learmonth <irl@debian.org> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> It is worth noting that live-build is not a Debian project, it is an
> external project that claims to be an official Debian project. This is
> something that needs to be fixed.
>
> There is no namespace issue, we are building on the existing live-config
> and
> live-boot packages that are maintained and bringing these into Debian as
> native projects. If necessary, these will be forks, but I'm hoping that
> won't have to happen and that we can integrate these packages into Debian
> and continue development in a collaborative manner.
>
> live-build has been deprecated by debian-cd, and live-build-ng is
> replacing it. In a purely Debian context at least, live-build is
> deprecated.
> live-build-ng is being developed in collaboration with debian-cd and D-I.
>
> I'm aware that I'm going to be upsetting people, but this has been a long
> time coming and I'm not going to spend time bikeshedding over naming. I
> would rather spend that time on integration of live image creation into
> official Debian infrastructure and building the best system for live image
> creation possible.
>
> Consider this thread marked as wontfix.
>
> Thanks,
> Iain.
>
> --
>

[Message part 2 (text/html, inline)]

Acknowledgement sent to Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net>:
Extra info received and forwarded to list. Copy sent to wnpp@debian.org, "Iain R. Learmonth" <irl@debian.org>. (Mon, 09 Nov 2015 00:57:04 GMT) (full text, mbox, link).

Message #45 received at 804315@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

Hello,

Speaking as a fairly happy user of live-build, but not a contributor
to it. I also don't know anything about live-build-ng yet so it is
perhaps worth mentioning that while I always got the live-build
support I needed, I did always feel that Daniel was perhaps a bit
too brusque with people. Point being, I'm not some Daniel fanboy
that just popped up out of nowhere. :)

However…

On Sun, Nov 08, 2015 at 11:45:50PM +0000, Iain R. Learmonth wrote:
> It is worth noting that live-build is not a Debian project, it is an
> external project that claims to be an official Debian project. This is
> something that needs to be fixed.

Can I ask why this matters? I have never before seen Debian take it
lightly when a new project/package invades an existing package's
namespace. I don't understand why it matters that live-build isn't a
Debian project and live-build-ng is.

I would have thought that a Debian project would be /more/ careful
about following existing Debian customs regarding namespace. Isn't
the existing custom to advise new packages to pick different names?

> live-build has been deprecated by debian-cd, and live-build-ng is
> replacing it. In a purely Debian context at least, live-build is deprecated.

It seems to me like if there is an issue with live-build claiming to
be some sort of official Debian project when it isn't, that could be
solved by asking it to not claim that. Not making your own that
deliberately takes over its name and goes out of its way to call it
deprecated.

As someone who is unaware of any previous hostilities and is just a
user of live-build, what this thread tells me is that it isn't
enough for people in Debian to come up with their own live project,
they have to explicitly attack the current live-build.

> live-build-ng is being developed in collaboration with debian-cd and D-I.

Don't you think it is quite offensive to call something foo-ng when
foo is clearly still alive?

> I'm aware that I'm going to be upsetting people, but this has been a long
> time coming and I'm not going to spend time bikeshedding over naming. I
> would rather spend that time on integration of live image creation into
> official Debian infrastructure and building the best system for live image
> creation possible.

It seems to me like it would be really quite trivial for you to pick
a different name, so it need not take away any real time from your
other activities.

Speaking from the point of view of someone who currently uses
live-build, I am no less likely to research live-build-ng just
because it would have a different name.

So…

> Consider this thread marked as wontfix.

…I don't really understand why things have to be so hostile, or why
this escalation of hostility was necessary. :(

Cheers,
Andy

Acknowledgement sent to chals <chals@chalsattack.com>:
Extra info received and forwarded to list. Copy sent to wnpp@debian.org, "Iain R. Learmonth" <irl@debian.org>. (Mon, 09 Nov 2015 08:09:08 GMT) (full text, mbox, link).

Message #50 received at 804315@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

On Mon, Nov 9, 2015 at 12:45 AM, Iain R. Learmonth <irl@debian.org> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> It is worth noting that live-build is not a Debian project, it is an
> external project that claims to be an official Debian project. This is
> something that needs to be fixed.
>
> There is no namespace issue, we are building on the existing live-config and
> live-boot packages that are maintained and bringing these into Debian as
> native projects. If necessary, these will be forks, but I'm hoping that
> won't have to happen and that we can integrate these packages into Debian
> and continue development in a collaborative manner.
>
> live-build has been deprecated by debian-cd, and live-build-ng is
> replacing it. In a purely Debian context at least, live-build is deprecated.
> live-build-ng is being developed in collaboration with debian-cd and D-I.
>
> I'm aware that I'm going to be upsetting people, but this has been a long
> time coming and I'm not going to spend time bikeshedding over naming. I
> would rather spend that time on integration of live image creation into
> official Debian infrastructure and building the best system for live image
> creation possible.
>

Hi,

Reading what you say, and I beg your pardon before going on, I can
tell that you absolutely have no idea about what the debian live
project is or about its history. But well, I have to admit that if
what you say is true, then you have a point.

You say "I'm aware that I'm going to be upsetting people, but this has
been a long time coming"

Yes you are absolutely right, you are upsetting people, people like me
who have contributed to debian for years and spent hours of effort to
make things better.

"A long time coming"? Excuse me, but the first thing I've ever heard
in all these years is that you and I mean you (not the debian cd team,
who supposedly is responsible for this upheaval)  shows up from out of
the blue claiming that you have the right to do as you please and
decide about the future of the debian live team.

This is, from my point of view, an act of dictatorship and with my
authority as a debian user and contributor for years I demand you step
down from your position and ask for forgiveness to the debian live
team for being so rude, impolite and not worthy of any more of my
priceless words and time.

Sorry for being so rude and impolite but you can only fight fire with fire.

> Consider this thread marked as wontfix.
>

Consider the same from my point of view.

-- 
chals
www.chalsattack.com
chals@chalsattack.com

Message #55 received at 804315@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

On Sat, Nov 7, 2015 at 1:32 PM, Daniel Baumann
<daniel.baumann@progress-technologies.com> wrote:
>
> but given the situation, i understand that argueing about this hijack is
> futile then.
>
> it would have been more honest to actually talk to us (we're doing this
> since almost 10 years now), and take over live-* packages directly,
> rathern than to uploading -ng versions of them.
>
> So long and thanks for all the fish,
> Daniel
>

I agree with Daniel, it is not worth arguing with dictators. So I won't.

I would only like to say that I have been actively contributing to the
debian live project since January, 2011 pushing hundreds, if not
thousands, of commits.

And I, hereby,  publicly declare that I refuse to contribute anymore
with all this people who are trying to take over everything we've been
working for and take advantage of our efforts.

Down with dictators!!!

Daniel and all the other people contributing to the debian live
project have all my support and commitment for whatever action you
want to take.  But as Daniel seemed to imply there is no use fighting
a lost battle.

dixit

-- 
chals
www.chalsattack.com
chals@chalsattack.com

Acknowledgement sent to Jeff C <jccrissman@gmail.com>:
Extra info received and forwarded to list. Copy sent to wnpp@debian.org, "Iain R. Learmonth" <irl@debian.org>. (Mon, 09 Nov 2015 08:39:04 GMT) (full text, mbox, link).

Message #60 received at 804315@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

To further cloud the issue, the Debian website still links to the Debian
Live project's website as the source of their live images.

Is there more than this one rude individual saying the Debian Live project
is being replaced?

On Mon, Nov 9, 2015 at 12:59 AM, chals <chals@chalsattack.com> wrote:

> On Mon, Nov 9, 2015 at 12:45 AM, Iain R. Learmonth <irl@debian.org> wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > It is worth noting that live-build is not a Debian project, it is an
> > external project that claims to be an official Debian project. This is
> > something that needs to be fixed.
> >
> > There is no namespace issue, we are building on the existing live-config
> and
> > live-boot packages that are maintained and bringing these into Debian as
> > native projects. If necessary, these will be forks, but I'm hoping that
> > won't have to happen and that we can integrate these packages into Debian
> > and continue development in a collaborative manner.
> >
> > live-build has been deprecated by debian-cd, and live-build-ng is
> > replacing it. In a purely Debian context at least, live-build is
> deprecated.
> > live-build-ng is being developed in collaboration with debian-cd and D-I.
> >
> > I'm aware that I'm going to be upsetting people, but this has been a long
> > time coming and I'm not going to spend time bikeshedding over naming. I
> > would rather spend that time on integration of live image creation into
> > official Debian infrastructure and building the best system for live
> image
> > creation possible.
> >
>
> Hi,
>
> Reading what you say, and I beg your pardon before going on, I can
> tell that you absolutely have no idea about what the debian live
> project is or about its history. But well, I have to admit that if
> what you say is true, then you have a point.
>
> You say "I'm aware that I'm going to be upsetting people, but this has
> been a long time coming"
>
> Yes you are absolutely right, you are upsetting people, people like me
> who have contributed to debian for years and spent hours of effort to
> make things better.
>
> "A long time coming"? Excuse me, but the first thing I've ever heard
> in all these years is that you and I mean you (not the debian cd team,
> who supposedly is responsible for this upheaval)  shows up from out of
> the blue claiming that you have the right to do as you please and
> decide about the future of the debian live team.
>
> This is, from my point of view, an act of dictatorship and with my
> authority as a debian user and contributor for years I demand you step
> down from your position and ask for forgiveness to the debian live
> team for being so rude, impolite and not worthy of any more of my
> priceless words and time.
>
> Sorry for being so rude and impolite but you can only fight fire with fire.
>
> > Consider this thread marked as wontfix.
> >
>
> Consider the same from my point of view.
>
>
>
> --
> chals
> www.chalsattack.com
> chals@chalsattack.com
>
>

[Message part 2 (text/html, inline)]

Acknowledgement sent to Neil Williams <codehelp@debian.org>:
Extra info received and forwarded to list. Copy sent to wnpp@debian.org, "Iain R. Learmonth" <irl@debian.org>. (Mon, 09 Nov 2015 09:09:04 GMT) (full text, mbox, link).

Message #65 received at 804315@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

On Mon, 9 Nov 2015 08:59:41 +0100
chals <chals@chalsattack.com> wrote:

> On Mon, Nov 9, 2015 at 12:45 AM, Iain R. Learmonth <irl@debian.org>
> wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > It is worth noting that live-build is not a Debian project, it is an
> > external project that claims to be an official Debian project. This
> > is something that needs to be fixed.
> >
> > There is no namespace issue, we are building on the existing
> > live-config and live-boot packages that are maintained and bringing
> > these into Debian as native projects. If necessary, these will be
> > forks, but I'm hoping that won't have to happen and that we can
> > integrate these packages into Debian and continue development in a
> > collaborative manner.
> >
> > live-build has been deprecated by debian-cd, and live-build-ng is
> > replacing it. In a purely Debian context at least, live-build is
> > deprecated. live-build-ng is being developed in collaboration with
> > debian-cd and D-I.
> >
> > I'm aware that I'm going to be upsetting people, but this has been
> > a long time coming and I'm not going to spend time bikeshedding
> > over naming. I would rather spend that time on integration of live
> > image creation into official Debian infrastructure and building the
> > best system for live image creation possible.
> >  

Apologies for making it look like Iain was the only voice on this. I've
been unwell this weekend and Steve has been busy with the miniDebConf
and is now (presumably) catching up on the sleep he lost whilst
organising it.

> Hi,
> 
> Reading what you say, and I beg your pardon before going on, I can
> tell that you absolutely have no idea about what the debian live
> project is or about its history. But well, I have to admit that if
> what you say is true, then you have a point.

I've been involved with debian-live before. I remember a meeting with
the live team at a previous debconf (Argentina?) where one of my
previous rootfs build tools [multistrap] was being considered for a
role within live but we didn't find a good match.

> You say "I'm aware that I'm going to be upsetting people, but this has
> been a long time coming"
> 
> Yes you are absolutely right, you are upsetting people, people like me
> who have contributed to debian for years and spent hours of effort to
> make things better.

Sorry, but I'm assuming you don't mean that Iain, Steve or I haven't
spent years contributing and uploading to Debian and years and years of
effort to make Debian better.

> "A long time coming"? Excuse me, but the first thing I've ever heard
> in all these years is that you and I mean you (not the debian cd team,
> who supposedly is responsible for this upheaval) 

It is the team. Steve has been asking me for this support in
vmdebootstrap for months and months. Every time there is a release or a
point release, I get more nagging because he has to struggle with
fixing live-*.

> shows up from out of
> the blue claiming that you have the right to do as you please and
> decide about the future of the debian live team.

Iain is not on his own. This comes from the debian-cd team. Steve has
been nagging me for vmdebootstrap support to replace live-build since
about a week after vmdebootstrap arrived in Debian, certainly before
the Jessie release.

> This is, from my point of view, an act of dictatorship and with my
> authority as a debian user and contributor for years I demand you step
> down from your position and ask for forgiveness to the debian live
> team for being so rude, impolite and not worthy of any more of my
> priceless words and time.

Not going to happen. Just what "authority" is a user meant to have?
Those who do the work in Debian earn the right to make the decisions on
how that work is done in Debian.

-- 

Neil Williams
=============
http://www.linux.codehelp.co.uk/

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Acknowledgement sent to Neil Williams <codehelp@debian.org>:
Extra info received and forwarded to list. Copy sent to wnpp@debian.org, "Iain R. Learmonth" <irl@debian.org>. (Mon, 09 Nov 2015 09:21:06 GMT) (full text, mbox, link).

Message #70 received at 804315@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

On Mon, 9 Nov 2015 11:18:32 +1100
"Michael ." <keltoiboy@gmail.com> wrote:

> >There is no namespace issue, we are building on the existing
> >live-config  
> and
> >live-boot packages that are maintained and bringing these into
> >Debian as native projects. If necessary, these will be forks, but
> >I'm hoping that won't have to happen and that we can integrate these
> >packages into Debian and continue development in a collaborative
> >manner.  
> 
> Actually there is and I think any person who works in a legal capacity
> would verify that.

No, in the Debian project, no team has exclusive rights over package
namespaces - filename conflicts are different. Namespacing should be
consistent with the purpose of the package to avoid confusion.
live-build-ng is the next generation of build tool for live images. The
name is appropriate.

> With regards to collaboration, considering this is the first many
> people have heard of this it seems to me you have not gone out of
> your way to integrate people who have been working on these packages
> into your project. As I said in my previous response to the Debian
> Live list (which btw last time someone used the word Debian in a
> unofficial capacity (Debian-Mulitmedia) they were asked to stop I
> haven't seen any requests like this to the Debian Live mailing list
> as yet) it would have been good if "instead of starting a new project
> the group from the new project would be much better off assisting
> with an already well established project
> 
> >live-build has been deprecated by debian-cd, and live-build-ng is
> >replacing it. In a purely Debian context at least, live-build is  
> deprecated.
> >live-build-ng is being developed in collaboration with debian-cd and
> >D-I.  
> 
> Just out of interests sake can you provide proof of this?

He just did. Iain speaks as part of the debian-cd team. The debian-cd
team deprecated live-build and have been looking for a replacement since
before the Jessie release. I made a set of changes which underpin that
support at DebConf15. Iain developed the code based upon that to
deliver the missing support which is required by the debian-cd team.
Job done. Well done, Iain.

> You seem to be very intractable. No discussion, no change of heart,

Correct.

What has happened here is that the debian-cd team have finally found a
solution to the provision of necessary support which has been lacking
from the debian-live project for an inordinate amount of time.

> not willing to discuss anything with people like Daniel who have been
> doing this for years. If there has been correspondence from any part
> of Debian and the team who are working on Debian-Live that shows this
> is not something new and out of the blue I'll be very surprised.

It's taken long enough already. There is no point waiting when the code
is now working.

-- 

Neil Williams
=============
http://www.linux.codehelp.co.uk/

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Acknowledgement sent to "Michael ." <keltoiboy@gmail.com>:
Extra info received and forwarded to list. Copy sent to wnpp@debian.org, "Iain R. Learmonth" <irl@debian.org>. (Mon, 09 Nov 2015 09:51:08 GMT) (full text, mbox, link).

Message #75 received at 804315@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

>No, in the Debian project, no team has exclusive rights over package
>namespaces - filename conflicts are different. Namespacing should be
>consistent with the purpose of the package to avoid confusion.
>live-build-ng is the next generation of build tool for live images. The
>name is appropriate.

Based on the so called fact, that has yet to be proven, that Debian Live is
not an official Debian project you do not have the right to take a name and
use it. Namespace is an identifier, if you use a namespace already in use
and claim it as your own you are adding to confusion.

>He just did. Iain speaks as part of the debian-cd team. The debian-cd
>team deprecated live-build and have been looking for a replacement since
>before the Jessie release. I made a set of changes which underpin that
>support at DebConf15. Iain developed the code based upon that to
>deliver the missing support which is required by the debian-cd team.
>Job done. Well done, Iain.

I'm sorry I don't see a link to any list or meeting minutes that even
remotely indicate this is an official Debian directive. All I see is a
couple of people who have been rude, uncompromising, post something they
cannot or will not show evidence for when asked. Good job Iain and Neil,
how to win friends and influence people, job well done.

>Correct.

So you admit to being intractable!

>What has happened here is that the debian-cd team have finally found a
>solution to the provision of necessary support which has been lacking
>from the debian-live project for an inordinate amount of time.

Yet the Debian CD webpage points directly to Debian Live iso images as
official images even though you or Iain have said they are not official.
You haven't found a solution, you haven't even got a Live iso image listed
on the official Debian cd site. If the Debian CD team truly believe that
things have been lacking in Debian Live "for an inordinate amount of time"
one would think the people involved in the Debian CD team would have
communicated with the Debian Live team and collaboratively worked with them
to fix the issues. This brings me back to a previous point, if their has
been communication between Debian and Debian Live about any of this where
is it? If it is not available for public viewing, as is all other Debian
correspondence and decision making as far as I am aware the only conclusion
that can reasonably be made is that a small number of people have
deliberately taken it upon themselves to hijack Debian Live without the
Debian Live team even knowing it is happening. All I have asked for is
proof, it is very telling that you have been unable to show it. Is this
because it doesn't exist?

This is just another problem that is making me consider Devuan as a viable
alternative to Debian. Debian's decision making processes used to be open
and public, this most certainly appears to be behind closed doors.

On 9 November 2015 at 20:17, Neil Williams <codehelp@debian.org> wrote:

> On Mon, 9 Nov 2015 11:18:32 +1100
> "Michael ." <keltoiboy@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > >There is no namespace issue, we are building on the existing
> > >live-config
> > and
> > >live-boot packages that are maintained and bringing these into
> > >Debian as native projects. If necessary, these will be forks, but
> > >I'm hoping that won't have to happen and that we can integrate these
> > >packages into Debian and continue development in a collaborative
> > >manner.
> >
> > Actually there is and I think any person who works in a legal capacity
> > would verify that.
>
> No, in the Debian project, no team has exclusive rights over package
> namespaces - filename conflicts are different. Namespacing should be
> consistent with the purpose of the package to avoid confusion.
> live-build-ng is the next generation of build tool for live images. The
> name is appropriate.
>
> > With regards to collaboration, considering this is the first many
> > people have heard of this it seems to me you have not gone out of
> > your way to integrate people who have been working on these packages
> > into your project. As I said in my previous response to the Debian
> > Live list (which btw last time someone used the word Debian in a
> > unofficial capacity (Debian-Mulitmedia) they were asked to stop I
> > haven't seen any requests like this to the Debian Live mailing list
> > as yet) it would have been good if "instead of starting a new project
> > the group from the new project would be much better off assisting
> > with an already well established project
> >
> > >live-build has been deprecated by debian-cd, and live-build-ng is
> > >replacing it. In a purely Debian context at least, live-build is
> > deprecated.
> > >live-build-ng is being developed in collaboration with debian-cd and
> > >D-I.
> >
> > Just out of interests sake can you provide proof of this?
>
> He just did. Iain speaks as part of the debian-cd team. The debian-cd
> team deprecated live-build and have been looking for a replacement since
> before the Jessie release. I made a set of changes which underpin that
> support at DebConf15. Iain developed the code based upon that to
> deliver the missing support which is required by the debian-cd team.
> Job done. Well done, Iain.
>
> > You seem to be very intractable. No discussion, no change of heart,
>
> Correct.
>
> What has happened here is that the debian-cd team have finally found a
> solution to the provision of necessary support which has been lacking
> from the debian-live project for an inordinate amount of time.
>
> > not willing to discuss anything with people like Daniel who have been
> > doing this for years. If there has been correspondence from any part
> > of Debian and the team who are working on Debian-Live that shows this
> > is not something new and out of the blue I'll be very surprised.
>
> It's taken long enough already. There is no point waiting when the code
> is now working.
>
> --
>
>
> Neil Williams
> =============
> http://www.linux.codehelp.co.uk/
>
>

[Message part 2 (text/html, inline)]

Information forwarded to debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org, wnpp@debian.org:
Bug#804315; Package wnpp. (Mon, 09 Nov 2015 10:21:03 GMT) (full text, mbox, link).

Acknowledgement sent to "Iain R. Learmonth" <irl@debian.org>:
Extra info received and forwarded to list. Copy sent to wnpp@debian.org. (Mon, 09 Nov 2015 10:21:03 GMT) (full text, mbox, link).

Message #80 received at 804315@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

Hi,

On Mon, Nov 09, 2015 at 08:47:53PM +1100, Michael . wrote:
>    Yet the Debian CD webpage points directly to Debian Live iso images as
>    official images even though you or Iain have said they are not
>    official. You haven't found a solution, you haven't even got a Live iso
>    image listed on the official Debian cd site.

See http://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/experimental-live/. These are far too
experimental currently for public consumption and so not listed on the
website.

>    If the Debian CD team
>    truly believe that things have been lacking in Debian Live "for an
>    inordinate amount of time" one would think the people involved in the
>    Debian CD team would have communicated with the Debian Live team and
>    collaboratively worked with them to fix the issues.

Communication was attempted and failed. Serious problems include:

 #718225: live-build should authenticate files it downloads (from 2013)
 #731709: support uefi (from 2013)

Neither of these issues have been fixed.

>    This brings me back
>    to a previous point, if their has been communication between Debian and
>    Debian Live about any of this where is it?

In person at DebConf meetings and on the BTS.

>    If it is not available for
>    public viewing, as is all other Debian correspondence and decision
>    making as far as I am aware the only conclusion that can reasonably be
>    made is that a small number of people have deliberately taken it upon
>    themselves to hijack Debian Live without the Debian Live team even
>    knowing it is happening.

vmdebootstrap has been a work in progress for a good while now, and Daniel
at least was aware of this. It would appear this was not communicated to the
team.

>    All I have asked for is proof, it is very
>    telling that you have been unable to show it. Is this because it
>    doesn't exist?

Updates on the Debian Trademark Policy will also be available soon to help
clarify what is and is not "Official Debian".

>    This is just another problem that is making me consider Devuan as a
>    viable alternative to Debian. Debian's decision making processes used
>    to be open and public, this most certainly appears to be behind closed
>    doors.

This is by no means normal for Debian, the problem here is that
communication was one sided where we did not see any progress on the issues
that were affecting the official live images and so we've ended up here.

Thanks,
Iain.

--

Acknowledgement sent to Fathi Boudra <fabo@debian.org>:
Extra info received and forwarded to list. Copy sent to wnpp@debian.org, "Iain R. Learmonth" <irl@debian.org>. (Mon, 09 Nov 2015 10:45:03 GMT) (full text, mbox, link).

Message #85 received at 804315@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

On Mon, Nov 9, 2015 at 11:06 AM, Neil Williams <codehelp@debian.org> wrote:
> On Mon, 9 Nov 2015 08:59:41 +0100
> chals <chals@chalsattack.com> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, Nov 9, 2015 at 12:45 AM, Iain R. Learmonth <irl@debian.org>
>> wrote:
>> > Hi,
>> >
>> > It is worth noting that live-build is not a Debian project, it is an
>> > external project that claims to be an official Debian project. This
>> > is something that needs to be fixed.
>> >
>> > There is no namespace issue, we are building on the existing
>> > live-config and live-boot packages that are maintained and bringing
>> > these into Debian as native projects. If necessary, these will be
>> > forks, but I'm hoping that won't have to happen and that we can
>> > integrate these packages into Debian and continue development in a
>> > collaborative manner.
>> >
>> > live-build has been deprecated by debian-cd, and live-build-ng is
>> > replacing it. In a purely Debian context at least, live-build is
>> > deprecated. live-build-ng is being developed in collaboration with
>> > debian-cd and D-I.
>> >
>> > I'm aware that I'm going to be upsetting people, but this has been
>> > a long time coming and I'm not going to spend time bikeshedding
>> > over naming. I would rather spend that time on integration of live
>> > image creation into official Debian infrastructure and building the
>> > best system for live image creation possible.
>> >
>
> Apologies for making it look like Iain was the only voice on this. I've
> been unwell this weekend and Steve has been busy with the miniDebConf
> and is now (presumably) catching up on the sleep he lost whilst
> organising it.
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> Reading what you say, and I beg your pardon before going on, I can
>> tell that you absolutely have no idea about what the debian live
>> project is or about its history. But well, I have to admit that if
>> what you say is true, then you have a point.
>
> I've been involved with debian-live before. I remember a meeting with
> the live team at a previous debconf (Argentina?) where one of my
> previous rootfs build tools [multistrap] was being considered for a
> role within live but we didn't find a good match.
>
>> You say "I'm aware that I'm going to be upsetting people, but this has
>> been a long time coming"
>>
>> Yes you are absolutely right, you are upsetting people, people like me
>> who have contributed to debian for years and spent hours of effort to
>> make things better.
>
> Sorry, but I'm assuming you don't mean that Iain, Steve or I haven't
> spent years contributing and uploading to Debian and years and years of
> effort to make Debian better.
>
>> "A long time coming"? Excuse me, but the first thing I've ever heard
>> in all these years is that you and I mean you (not the debian cd team,
>> who supposedly is responsible for this upheaval)
>
> It is the team. Steve has been asking me for this support in
> vmdebootstrap for months and months. Every time there is a release or a
> point release, I get more nagging because he has to struggle with
> fixing live-*.

Would you (or Steve or the Debian CD team) please point to actual real
bugs that affected you?
You claim it as a reason of debian cd team switch to vmdebootsrap. As
a live-build user, I'm interested by these.

>> shows up from out of
>> the blue claiming that you have the right to do as you please and
>> decide about the future of the debian live team.
>
> Iain is not on his own. This comes from the debian-cd team. Steve has
> been nagging me for vmdebootstrap support to replace live-build since
> about a week after vmdebootstrap arrived in Debian, certainly before
> the Jessie release.
>
>> This is, from my point of view, an act of dictatorship and with my
>> authority as a debian user and contributor for years I demand you step
>> down from your position and ask for forgiveness to the debian live
>> team for being so rude, impolite and not worthy of any more of my
>> priceless words and time.
>
> Not going to happen. Just what "authority" is a user meant to have?
> Those who do the work in Debian earn the right to make the decisions on
> how that work is done in Debian.

Information forwarded to debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org, wnpp@debian.org:
Bug#804315; Package wnpp. (Mon, 09 Nov 2015 10:51:12 GMT) (full text, mbox, link).

Acknowledgement sent to "Iain R. Learmonth" <irl@debian.org>:
Extra info received and forwarded to list. Copy sent to wnpp@debian.org. (Mon, 09 Nov 2015 10:51:12 GMT) (full text, mbox, link).

Message #90 received at 804315@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

Hi,

On Mon, Nov 09, 2015 at 12:41:16PM +0200, Fathi Boudra wrote:
> Would you (or Steve or the Debian CD team) please point to actual real
> bugs that affected you?
> You claim it as a reason of debian cd team switch to vmdebootsrap. As
> a live-build user, I'm interested by these.

As in my previous email:

 #718225: live-build should authenticate files it downloads (from 2013)
 #731709: support uefi (from 2013)

I am a member of the debian-cd team.

These are just two of the major bugs, the real problem we had is that
live-build is very fragile and did not produce much in the way of useful
output when things broke.

This is why there was a delay in the release of live images after the
release of jessie.

Thanks,
Iain.

--

Acknowledgement sent to Fathi Boudra <fboudra@gmail.com>:
Extra info received and forwarded to list. Copy sent to wnpp@debian.org, "Iain R. Learmonth" <irl@debian.org>. (Mon, 09 Nov 2015 10:54:04 GMT) (full text, mbox, link).

Message #95 received at 804315@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

On Mon, Nov 9, 2015 at 11:17 AM, Neil Williams <codehelp@debian.org> wrote:
> On Mon, 9 Nov 2015 11:18:32 +1100
> "Michael ." <keltoiboy@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> >There is no namespace issue, we are building on the existing
>> >live-config
>> and
>> >live-boot packages that are maintained and bringing these into
>> >Debian as native projects. If necessary, these will be forks, but
>> >I'm hoping that won't have to happen and that we can integrate these
>> >packages into Debian and continue development in a collaborative
>> >manner.
>>
>> Actually there is and I think any person who works in a legal capacity
>> would verify that.
>
> No, in the Debian project, no team has exclusive rights over package
> namespaces - filename conflicts are different. Namespacing should be
> consistent with the purpose of the package to avoid confusion.
> live-build-ng is the next generation of build tool for live images. The
> name is appropriate.

Obviously, several users don't agree with you. There's a conflict of
interest in the naming of your new package, which confuse established
users base of live-build. live-build-ng isn't a drop in replacement of
live-build, or live-build deprecated in any way (except its usage by
Debian CD team).

Acknowledgement sent to Antonio Terceiro <terceiro@debian.org>:
Extra info received and forwarded to list. Copy sent to wnpp@debian.org, "Iain R. Learmonth" <irl@debian.org>. (Mon, 09 Nov 2015 18:21:18 GMT) (full text, mbox, link).

Message #100 received at 804315@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

On Mon, Nov 09, 2015 at 12:51:24PM +0200, Fathi Boudra wrote:
> On Mon, Nov 9, 2015 at 11:17 AM, Neil Williams <codehelp@debian.org> wrote:
> > On Mon, 9 Nov 2015 11:18:32 +1100
> > "Michael ." <keltoiboy@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> >There is no namespace issue, we are building on the existing
> >> >live-config
> >> and
> >> >live-boot packages that are maintained and bringing these into
> >> >Debian as native projects. If necessary, these will be forks, but
> >> >I'm hoping that won't have to happen and that we can integrate these
> >> >packages into Debian and continue development in a collaborative
> >> >manner.
> >>
> >> Actually there is and I think any person who works in a legal capacity
> >> would verify that.
> >
> > No, in the Debian project, no team has exclusive rights over package
> > namespaces - filename conflicts are different. Namespacing should be
> > consistent with the purpose of the package to avoid confusion.
> > live-build-ng is the next generation of build tool for live images. The
> > name is appropriate.
> 
> Obviously, several users don't agree with you. There's a conflict of
> interest in the naming of your new package, which confuse established
> users base of live-build. live-build-ng isn't a drop in replacement of
> live-build, or live-build deprecated in any way (except its usage by
> Debian CD team).

I do agree that naming something $foo-ng indeed sends a very strong,
even if implicit, message about $foo, which is not the case here.

On the other hand, there is no good reason why this new tool _needs_ to
be called live-build-ng, so can you please call it something else?

-- 
Antonio Terceiro <terceiro@debian.org>

[signature.asc (application/pgp-signature, inline)]

Acknowledgement sent to Ralph Amissah <ralph.amissah@gmail.com>:
Extra info received and forwarded to list. Copy sent to wnpp@debian.org, "Iain R. Learmonth" <irl@debian.org>. (Mon, 09 Nov 2015 19:45:03 GMT) (full text, mbox, link).

Message #105 received at 804315@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

I post not in anger but sadness, I should not let my voice go uncounted.

Attached is my note to Daniel of earlier today, before his posting of
"an abrupt end to Debian Live". Debian Live which he said Debian should
have (as a Debian developer) in 2006 and went on to deliver, rather
nicely (with (and without) help).

----- Forwarded message from Ralph Amissah <ralph.amissah@gmail.com> -----

From: Ralph Amissah <ralph.amissah@gmail.com>
To: Daniel Baumann
Subject: outrageous, thievery
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 09:28:44 -0500
Message-ID: <20151109142844.GA28261@niu>
User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.24 (2015-08-30)

Daniel, (already one of the more active Debian Developers then) I
remember you telling Debian at Debconf 2006, Mexico about how "we"[1]
needed a live-maker within the project. I said then that I thought this
one of the most important projects within Debian (I was surprised that
there was not more interest and effort offered by others at the time,
though there was some, those so keen now did not seem to pay attention
then).  Already then it was clear that it would one day be able to and
possibly be the preferred way to do a Debian install... as I said,
important. I saw how you contributed to Debian then, and I know how you
have contributed since. Instead of welcoming you and your work, there
seems to have been an effort to isolate you.

Well clearly others have seen the fruits of your labor as a threat and
with envy, and ripe for their plucking!

Outrageous! Disgusting. It is nasty. A bit strange to think that I
"know" some of those guys.

My interest in Debian proper, dropped with your earlier treatment, it
took away the desire to be a closer part of it. At least that took out
much of any idealized notion of the inner workings of it. And there have
been other moves since. I continue to be amazed by the politics of
groups within Debian.  This though has the feel of blatant thievery.
Chals characterization of a dictatorial coup would seem to be most
accurate.

It has no doubt to do with power (perhaps indirectly money is involved
as well), your work & work area being seen as strategically important.
They do it because they can, & justify it whatever which way they will.

I am sorry. I feel pretty bruised on your behalf.

We have not spoken in a long while. I hope we have the chance to talk in
happier times.

Greetings.
Ralph

P.S. We are ok, not much to report.

----- End forwarded message -----
[edits: addition of footnote, &; s/picking/plucking/]

Indeed I am a friend of Daniel and primarily a user of Debian (a minor
contributor of a package (sisu[2]) that I wrote that I am happy to have in
Debian). In other circumstances I would consider myself at least an
admirer of individuals involved on the other side of this. Indeed I (use
use some of your software daily and) have met a number of you over the
years at a number of Debconfs and have fond memories for example of
visits to Cambridge when I lived in the U.K. and of being "introduced"
to Debian by Debian insiders.

Thanks to all who have stood up for Daniel, he is a wonderful, generous,
(and capable) person. And yes, I do think him "wronged" by "Debian".
There are others that know him pretty well, who have followed a fairly
long sequence of events who must be outraged as well.

Of course I wish Debian well, but I do not see your "handling" of Daniel
as its finest hour. This will no doubt "blow over" as it must ultimately
for the good of the project, but it sticks in my craw as it no doubt
does others, and there should be some record of conscientious objection.

Ralph Amissah

[1] to be clear, "we" was Debian.
[2] http://www.sisudoc.org/
    https://qa.debian.org/developer.php?login=sisu@lists.sisudoc.org

Acknowledgement sent to Richard Newton <rich123409@gmail.com>:
Extra info received and forwarded to list. Copy sent to wnpp@debian.org, "Iain R. Learmonth" <irl@debian.org>. (Mon, 09 Nov 2015 21:18:12 GMT) (full text, mbox, link).

Message #110 received at 804315@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

I agree, shame on those responsible. I have been using Debian for almost 15
years and this is the first time I have been ashamed. Add my name to the
record "of conscientious objection."

RIchard Newton

On Mon, Nov 9, 2015 at 11:42 AM, Ralph Amissah <ralph.amissah@gmail.com>
wrote:

> I post not in anger but sadness, I should not let my voice go uncounted.
>
> Attached is my note to Daniel of earlier today, before his posting of
> "an abrupt end to Debian Live". Debian Live which he said Debian should
> have (as a Debian developer) in 2006 and went on to deliver, rather
> nicely (with (and without) help).
>
> ----- Forwarded message from Ralph Amissah <ralph.amissah@gmail.com> -----
>
> From: Ralph Amissah <ralph.amissah@gmail.com>
> To: Daniel Baumann
> Subject: outrageous, thievery
> Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 09:28:44 -0500
> Message-ID: <20151109142844.GA28261@niu>
> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.24 (2015-08-30)
>
> Daniel, (already one of the more active Debian Developers then) I
> remember you telling Debian at Debconf 2006, Mexico about how "we"[1]
> needed a live-maker within the project. I said then that I thought this
> one of the most important projects within Debian (I was surprised that
> there was not more interest and effort offered by others at the time,
> though there was some, those so keen now did not seem to pay attention
> then).  Already then it was clear that it would one day be able to and
> possibly be the preferred way to do a Debian install... as I said,
> important. I saw how you contributed to Debian then, and I know how you
> have contributed since. Instead of welcoming you and your work, there
> seems to have been an effort to isolate you.
>
> Well clearly others have seen the fruits of your labor as a threat and
> with envy, and ripe for their plucking!
>
> Outrageous! Disgusting. It is nasty. A bit strange to think that I
> "know" some of those guys.
>
> My interest in Debian proper, dropped with your earlier treatment, it
> took away the desire to be a closer part of it. At least that took out
> much of any idealized notion of the inner workings of it. And there have
> been other moves since. I continue to be amazed by the politics of
> groups within Debian.  This though has the feel of blatant thievery.
> Chals characterization of a dictatorial coup would seem to be most
> accurate.
>
> It has no doubt to do with power (perhaps indirectly money is involved
> as well), your work & work area being seen as strategically important.
> They do it because they can, & justify it whatever which way they will.
>
> I am sorry. I feel pretty bruised on your behalf.
>
> We have not spoken in a long while. I hope we have the chance to talk in
> happier times.
>
> Greetings.
> Ralph
>
> P.S. We are ok, not much to report.
>
> ----- End forwarded message -----
> [edits: addition of footnote, &; s/picking/plucking/]
>
> Indeed I am a friend of Daniel and primarily a user of Debian (a minor
> contributor of a package (sisu[2]) that I wrote that I am happy to have in
> Debian). In other circumstances I would consider myself at least an
> admirer of individuals involved on the other side of this. Indeed I (use
> use some of your software daily and) have met a number of you over the
> years at a number of Debconfs and have fond memories for example of
> visits to Cambridge when I lived in the U.K. and of being "introduced"
> to Debian by Debian insiders.
>
> Thanks to all who have stood up for Daniel, he is a wonderful, generous,
> (and capable) person. And yes, I do think him "wronged" by "Debian".
> There are others that know him pretty well, who have followed a fairly
> long sequence of events who must be outraged as well.
>
> Of course I wish Debian well, but I do not see your "handling" of Daniel
> as its finest hour. This will no doubt "blow over" as it must ultimately
> for the good of the project, but it sticks in my craw as it no doubt
> does others, and there should be some record of conscientious objection.
>
> Ralph Amissah
>
> [1] to be clear, "we" was Debian.
> [2] http://www.sisudoc.org/
>     https://qa.debian.org/developer.php?login=sisu@lists.sisudoc.org
>
>


-- 
CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This electronic communication with its contents may
contain confidential and/or privileged information. It is solely for the
use of the intended recipient(s). Unauthorized interception, review, use,
or disclosure is prohibited and may violate applicable laws including the
Electronic Communications Privacy Act. If you are not the intended
recipient, or authorized to receive for the intended recipient, please
contact the sender and destroy all copies of the communication. Thank you
for your consideration.

[Message part 2 (text/html, inline)]

Acknowledgement sent to Ed Dixon <eddixonnm@gmail.com>:
Extra info received and forwarded to list. Copy sent to wnpp@debian.org, "Iain R. Learmonth" <irl@debian.org>. (Mon, 09 Nov 2015 22:03:12 GMT) (full text, mbox, link).

Message #115 received at 804315@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

Be sure to share Daniels story via social media using the buttons on his
blog. I hope it wakes up the entire community to what happens when you
actually do something right around here! https://t.co/NwWs9AfW87 Thanks,

On Mon, Nov 9, 2015 at 2:15 PM Richard Newton <rich123409@gmail.com> wrote:

> I agree, shame on those responsible. I have been using Debian for almost
> 15 years and this is the first time I have been ashamed. Add my name to the
> record "of conscientious objection."
>
> RIchard Newton
>
> On Mon, Nov 9, 2015 at 11:42 AM, Ralph Amissah <ralph.amissah@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> I post not in anger but sadness, I should not let my voice go uncounted.
>>
>> Attached is my note to Daniel of earlier today, before his posting of
>> "an abrupt end to Debian Live". Debian Live which he said Debian should
>> have (as a Debian developer) in 2006 and went on to deliver, rather
>> nicely (with (and without) help).
>>
>> ----- Forwarded message from Ralph Amissah <ralph.amissah@gmail.com>
>> -----
>>
>> From: Ralph Amissah <ralph.amissah@gmail.com>
>> To: Daniel Baumann
>> Subject: outrageous, thievery
>> Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 09:28:44 -0500
>> Message-ID: <20151109142844.GA28261@niu>
>> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.24 (2015-08-30)
>>
>> Daniel, (already one of the more active Debian Developers then) I
>> remember you telling Debian at Debconf 2006, Mexico about how "we"[1]
>> needed a live-maker within the project. I said then that I thought this
>> one of the most important projects within Debian (I was surprised that
>> there was not more interest and effort offered by others at the time,
>> though there was some, those so keen now did not seem to pay attention
>> then).  Already then it was clear that it would one day be able to and
>> possibly be the preferred way to do a Debian install... as I said,
>> important. I saw how you contributed to Debian then, and I know how you
>> have contributed since. Instead of welcoming you and your work, there
>> seems to have been an effort to isolate you.
>>
>> Well clearly others have seen the fruits of your labor as a threat and
>> with envy, and ripe for their plucking!
>>
>> Outrageous! Disgusting. It is nasty. A bit strange to think that I
>> "know" some of those guys.
>>
>> My interest in Debian proper, dropped with your earlier treatment, it
>> took away the desire to be a closer part of it. At least that took out
>> much of any idealized notion of the inner workings of it. And there have
>> been other moves since. I continue to be amazed by the politics of
>> groups within Debian.  This though has the feel of blatant thievery.
>> Chals characterization of a dictatorial coup would seem to be most
>> accurate.
>>
>> It has no doubt to do with power (perhaps indirectly money is involved
>> as well), your work & work area being seen as strategically important.
>> They do it because they can, & justify it whatever which way they will.
>>
>> I am sorry. I feel pretty bruised on your behalf.
>>
>> We have not spoken in a long while. I hope we have the chance to talk in
>> happier times.
>>
>> Greetings.
>> Ralph
>>
>> P.S. We are ok, not much to report.
>>
>> ----- End forwarded message -----
>> [edits: addition of footnote, &; s/picking/plucking/]
>>
>> Indeed I am a friend of Daniel and primarily a user of Debian (a minor
>> contributor of a package (sisu[2]) that I wrote that I am happy to have in
>> Debian). In other circumstances I would consider myself at least an
>> admirer of individuals involved on the other side of this. Indeed I (use
>> use some of your software daily and) have met a number of you over the
>> years at a number of Debconfs and have fond memories for example of
>> visits to Cambridge when I lived in the U.K. and of being "introduced"
>> to Debian by Debian insiders.
>>
>> Thanks to all who have stood up for Daniel, he is a wonderful, generous,
>> (and capable) person. And yes, I do think him "wronged" by "Debian".
>> There are others that know him pretty well, who have followed a fairly
>> long sequence of events who must be outraged as well.
>>
>> Of course I wish Debian well, but I do not see your "handling" of Daniel
>> as its finest hour. This will no doubt "blow over" as it must ultimately
>> for the good of the project, but it sticks in my craw as it no doubt
>> does others, and there should be some record of conscientious objection.
>>
>> Ralph Amissah
>>
>> [1] to be clear, "we" was Debian.
>> [2] http://www.sisudoc.org/
>>     https://qa.debian.org/developer.php?login=sisu@lists.sisudoc.org
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This electronic communication with its contents
> may contain confidential and/or privileged information. It is solely for
> the use of the intended recipient(s). Unauthorized interception, review,
> use, or disclosure is prohibited and may violate applicable laws including
> the Electronic Communications Privacy Act. If you are not the intended
> recipient, or authorized to receive for the intended recipient, please
> contact the sender and destroy all copies of the communication. Thank you
> for your consideration.
>

[Message part 2 (text/html, inline)]

Acknowledgement sent to Joerg Jaspert <joerg@debian.org>:
Extra info received and forwarded to list. Copy sent to wnpp@debian.org, "Iain R. Learmonth" <irl@debian.org>. (Mon, 09 Nov 2015 22:18:09 GMT) (full text, mbox, link).

Message #120 received at 804315@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

Hi,

seriously? You are kidding, right? This *IS* a namespace invasion and a
bad one at that. The live-* is in Debian, scrap arguments of "its
not official", thats just wrong. You may not like its maintainer, you
may not want that particular software and want to get your own. Thats
all fine, but this action is not.

Use a different name or politely ask the originals name owner if they
care to give it to you.

-- 
bye, Joerg
Our lives are in the hands of men no smarter than you or I. Many of them
incompetent boobs. I know this because I’ve worked alongside them, gone
bowling with them, watch them pass me over for promotions time and
again.

[signature.asc (application/pgp-signature, inline)]

Acknowledgement sent to Joerg Jaspert <joerg@ganneff.de>:
Extra info received and forwarded to list. Copy sent to wnpp@debian.org, "Iain R. Learmonth" <irl@debian.org>. (Mon, 09 Nov 2015 22:33:04 GMT) (full text, mbox, link).

Message #125 received at 804315@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

On 14120 March 1977, Iain R. Learmonth wrote:
> It is worth noting that live-build is not a Debian project, it is an
> external project that claims to be an official Debian project. This is
> something that needs to be fixed.

It is worth noting that you do not declare such things. Such an attitude
is just plain wrong. It is as official a package in Debian as any other,
and we have been respectful with namespaces on replacing them. At a
minimum people got approached before.

> I'm aware that I'm going to be upsetting people, but this has been a long
> time coming and I'm not going to spend time bikeshedding over naming.

As an ftpmaster I can tell you that you will have to spend more time on
bikeshedding over the name. live-build-ng wont fly.

> I would rather spend that time on integration of live image creation
> into official Debian infrastructure and building the best system for
> live image creation possible.

You would have spent WAY less time on this if you wouldn't have started
out entirely negative here.

-- 
bye, Joerg
Siliziumdioxid wird auf offenen LKWs durch Deutschland gefahren!
Der Sauerstoffgehalt der Atmosphaere ist auf 21% gesunken!

Acknowledgement sent to Richard Nelson <unixabg@gmail.com>:
Extra info received and forwarded to list. Copy sent to wnpp@debian.org, "Iain R. Learmonth" <irl@debian.org>. (Mon, 09 Nov 2015 22:45:06 GMT) (full text, mbox, link).

Message #130 received at 804315@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

Greetings,

On Sun, Nov 8, 2015 at 5:45 PM, Iain R. Learmonth <irl@debian.org> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> It is worth noting that live-build is not a Debian project, it is an
> external project that claims to be an official Debian project. This is
> something that needs to be fixed.
>
> There is no namespace issue, we are building on the existing live-config
> and
> live-boot packages that are maintained and bringing these into Debian as
> native projects. If necessary, these will be forks, but I'm hoping that
> won't have to happen and that we can integrate these packages into Debian
> and continue development in a collaborative manner.
>
>
In my opinion there is a namespace issue.


> live-build has been deprecated by debian-cd, and live-build-ng is
> replacing it. In a purely Debian context at least, live-build is
> deprecated.
> live-build-ng is being developed in collaboration with debian-cd and D-I.
>
>
Just because it has been deprecated by the debian-cd team, does that imply
it is deprecated by all Debian users? Again the simple solution to select a
new namespace does not seem that complicated.



> I'm aware that I'm going to be upsetting people, but this has been a long
> time coming and I'm not going to spend time bikeshedding over naming. I
> would rather spend that time on integration of live image creation into
> official Debian infrastructure and building the best system for live image
> creation possible.
>
> Consider this thread marked as wontfix.
>
>
Hmm that saddens me.


> Thanks,
> Iain.
>
> --
>
>

[Message part 2 (text/html, inline)]

Message #135 received at 804315@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

Greetings,

On Mon, Nov 9, 2015 at 3:06 AM, Neil Williams <codehelp@debian.org> wrote:

> On Mon, 9 Nov 2015 08:59:41 +0100
> chals <chals@chalsattack.com> wrote:
>
> > On Mon, Nov 9, 2015 at 12:45 AM, Iain R. Learmonth <irl@debian.org>
> > wrote:
> > > Hi,
> > >


<snip>


> > Hi,
> >
> > Reading what you say, and I beg your pardon before going on, I can
> > tell that you absolutely have no idea about what the debian live
> > project is or about its history. But well, I have to admit that if
> > what you say is true, then you have a point.
>
> I've been involved with debian-live before. I remember a meeting with
> the live team at a previous debconf (Argentina?) where one of my
> previous rootfs build tools [multistrap] was being considered for a
> role within live but we didn't find a good match.
>
> > You say "I'm aware that I'm going to be upsetting people, but this has
> > been a long time coming"
> >
> > Yes you are absolutely right, you are upsetting people, people like me
> > who have contributed to debian for years and spent hours of effort to
> > make things better.
>
> Sorry, but I'm assuming you don't mean that Iain, Steve or I haven't
> spent years contributing and uploading to Debian and years and years of
> effort to make Debian better.
>
>
I do not think that is the intent of Chals statement, I believe he is
referencing the caring that he and many others have given the project and
namespace that appears to be being hijacked and at the least invaded.


> > "A long time coming"? Excuse me, but the first thing I've ever heard
> > in all these years is that you and I mean you (not the debian cd team,
> > who supposedly is responsible for this upheaval)
>
> It is the team. Steve has been asking me for this support in
> vmdebootstrap for months and months. Every time there is a release or a
> point release, I get more nagging because he has to struggle with
> fixing live-*.
>
>
I asked this in another response and not to be confused but, does the
debian-cd team speak for all of Debian and its users?


> > shows up from out of
> > the blue claiming that you have the right to do as you please and
> > decide about the future of the debian live team.
>
> Iain is not on his own. This comes from the debian-cd team. Steve has
> been nagging me for vmdebootstrap support to replace live-build since
> about a week after vmdebootstrap arrived in Debian, certainly before
> the Jessie release.
>
>
Seems to be a project idea really centered around vmdebootstrap and maybe a
good basename for a project namesapce.


> > This is, from my point of view, an act of dictatorship and with my
> > authority as a debian user and contributor for years I demand you step
> > down from your position and ask for forgiveness to the debian live
> > team for being so rude, impolite and not worthy of any more of my
> > priceless words and time.
>
> Not going to happen. Just what "authority" is a user meant to have?
>

Hmm, strong words, but all I can say is no users no community.


> Those who do the work in Debian earn the right to make the decisions on
> how that work is done in Debian.
>
>
I understand your statement, but, if those who make the decisions choose
not to consider feedback and/or fail to listen to the community, well this
travels down the road to the definition of dictatorship.


> --
>
>
> Neil Williams
> =============
> http://www.linux.codehelp.co.uk/
>
>

[Message part 2 (text/html, inline)]

Acknowledgement sent to Julian Andres Klode <jak@debian.org>:
Extra info received and forwarded to list. Copy sent to wnpp@debian.org, "Iain R. Learmonth" <irl@debian.org>. (Mon, 09 Nov 2015 23:15:15 GMT) (full text, mbox, link).

Message #140 received at 804315@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

On Mon, Nov 09, 2015 at 11:23:10PM +0100, Joerg Jaspert wrote:
> On 14120 March 1977, Iain R. Learmonth wrote:
> > It is worth noting that live-build is not a Debian project, it is an
> > external project that claims to be an official Debian project. This is
> > something that needs to be fixed.
> 
> It is worth noting that you do not declare such things. Such an attitude
> is just plain wrong. It is as official a package in Debian as any other,
> and we have been respectful with namespaces on replacing them. At a
> minimum people got approached before.

Well, people seem to be happy to "invade" other namespaces, just look
at how much packages start with "apt-" ;) [which confuses users, because
they think the APT team is the right team to talk to].

But we don't have the replacement problem, there is no apt-ng package
or similar.

> 
> > I'm aware that I'm going to be upsetting people, but this has been a long
> > time coming and I'm not going to spend time bikeshedding over naming.
> 
> As an ftpmaster I can tell you that you will have to spend more time on
> bikeshedding over the name. live-build-ng wont fly.

May I suggest debian-cd-live or debian-live-cd as a name? That would
be close in name to debian-cd, highlighting its use case. Or 
vmdebootstrap-live if you want to focus on vmdebootstrap name-wise (you
being maintainer here).

-- 
Julian Andres Klode  - Debian Developer, Ubuntu Member

See http://wiki.debian.org/JulianAndresKlode and http://jak-linux.org/.

Be friendly, do not top-post, and follow RFC 1855 "Netiquette".
    - If you don't I might ignore you.

Message #145 received at 804315@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

On Mon, Nov 9, 2015 at 8:42 PM, Ralph Amissah <ralph.amissah@gmail.com> wrote:
> I post not in anger but sadness, I should not let my voice go uncounted.
>
> Attached is my note to Daniel of earlier today, before his posting of
> "an abrupt end to Debian Live". Debian Live which he said Debian should
> have (as a Debian developer) in 2006 and went on to deliver, rather
> nicely (with (and without) help).
>

Thanks for sharing this with us all.

We all know that Daniel deserves all the best for his hard work and
devotion to the project and however he has suffered continuous attacks
without any reason.

I am really sad, but I am at the same time relieved because there will
be no more bullying against him, whom I know and appreciate so much.

-- 
chals
www.chalsattack.com
chals@chalsattack.com

Information forwarded to debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org, wnpp@debian.org, "Iain R. Learmonth" <irl@debian.org>:
Bug#804315; Package wnpp. (Tue, 10 Nov 2015 00:27:08 GMT) (full text, mbox, link).

Acknowledgement sent to "Michael ." <keltoiboy@gmail.com>:
Extra info received and forwarded to list. Copy sent to wnpp@debian.org, "Iain R. Learmonth" <irl@debian.org>. (Tue, 10 Nov 2015 00:27:08 GMT) (full text, mbox, link).

Message #150 received at 804315@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

>See http://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/experimental-live/. These are far too
>experimental currently for public consumption and so not listed on the
>website.
2 things. 1st,  it looks like that page popped up yesterday.
2nd, if they are experimental they are absolutely no good in any way shape
or form for people who want a reliable system.

>Communication was attempted and failed. Serious problems include:
>#718225: live-build should authenticate files it downloads (from 2013)
>#731709: support uefi (from 2013)
>Neither of these issues have been fixed.
Now we are getting somewhere. How many times do you need to be asked
something before you are willing to provide the evidence being sought? Did
you provide any patches to get fix any of the issues you speak of?

>In person at DebConf meetings and on the BTS.
Links please?

>vmdebootstrap has been a work in progress for a good while now, and Daniel
>at least was aware of this. It would appear this was not communicated to
the
>team.
And you were somehow incapable of posting to the Debian Live mailing list?

>Updates on the Debian Trademark Policy will also be available soon to help
>clarify what is and is not "Official Debian".
To little to late I'm afraid. You see the problem is you come out with
comments that you cannot backup, now you have to "update" a policy so you
appear to be in the right.

>This is by no means normal for Debian, the problem here is that
>communication was one sided where we did not see any progress on the issues
>that were affecting the official live images and so we've ended up here.
So the images created by the Debian Live team are official.
The problem here is the way you and your team have gone about this. Closed
door discussions about a project you personally were not a part of that is,
for all intents and purposes, an official part of Debian until you or
someone else can "update" a policy to force it out of Debian. Do you not
see why people are angry with this.

You and your team have done Debian a huge disservice the way you have gone
about this. If this is how Debian works now I'm going to have to seriously
consider my proselytising on its behalf.


On 9 November 2015 at 21:17, Iain R. Learmonth <irl@debian.org> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On Mon, Nov 09, 2015 at 08:47:53PM +1100, Michael . wrote:
> >    Yet the Debian CD webpage points directly to Debian Live iso images as
> >    official images even though you or Iain have said they are not
> >    official. You haven't found a solution, you haven't even got a Live
> iso
> >    image listed on the official Debian cd site.
>
> See http://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/experimental-live/. These are far
> too
> experimental currently for public consumption and so not listed on the
> website.
>
> >    If the Debian CD team
> >    truly believe that things have been lacking in Debian Live "for an
> >    inordinate amount of time" one would think the people involved in the
> >    Debian CD team would have communicated with the Debian Live team and
> >    collaboratively worked with them to fix the issues.
>
> Communication was attempted and failed. Serious problems include:
>
>  #718225: live-build should authenticate files it downloads (from 2013)
>  #731709: support uefi (from 2013)
>
> Neither of these issues have been fixed.
>
> >    This brings me back
> >    to a previous point, if their has been communication between Debian
> and
> >    Debian Live about any of this where is it?
>
> In person at DebConf meetings and on the BTS.
>
> >    If it is not available for
> >    public viewing, as is all other Debian correspondence and decision
> >    making as far as I am aware the only conclusion that can reasonably be
> >    made is that a small number of people have deliberately taken it upon
> >    themselves to hijack Debian Live without the Debian Live team even
> >    knowing it is happening.
>
> vmdebootstrap has been a work in progress for a good while now, and Daniel
> at least was aware of this. It would appear this was not communicated to
> the
> team.
>
> >    All I have asked for is proof, it is very
> >    telling that you have been unable to show it. Is this because it
> >    doesn't exist?
>
> Updates on the Debian Trademark Policy will also be available soon to help
> clarify what is and is not "Official Debian".
>
> >    This is just another problem that is making me consider Devuan as a
> >    viable alternative to Debian. Debian's decision making processes used
> >    to be open and public, this most certainly appears to be behind closed
> >    doors.
>
> This is by no means normal for Debian, the problem here is that
> communication was one sided where we did not see any progress on the issues
> that were affecting the official live images and so we've ended up here.
>
> Thanks,
> Iain.
>
> --
>

[Message part 2 (text/html, inline)]

Information forwarded to debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org, debian-devel@lists.debian.org, debian-live@lists.debian.org, wnpp@debian.org:
Bug#804315; Package wnpp. (Tue, 10 Nov 2015 03:33:04 GMT) (full text, mbox, link).

Acknowledgement sent to "Iain R. Learmonth" <irl@debian.org>:
Extra info received and forwarded to list. Copy sent to debian-devel@lists.debian.org, debian-live@lists.debian.org, wnpp@debian.org. (Tue, 10 Nov 2015 03:33:04 GMT) (full text, mbox, link).

Message #155 received at 804315@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

retitle 804315 ITP: live-wrapper -- live image wrapper for vmdebootstrap
kthxbye

Hi All,

My original aim for this was that this new tool would be integrated into the
existing Debian Live project, and that we would bring the Debian Live
project into Debian. This is not the way it has gone.

The naming of the package live-build-ng was not intended to serve as a
request for live-build development to stop, or for the packages to be
removed from Debian. This was intended to be an evolution of the existing
ecosystem with tighter integration to the needs of debian-cd, debian-boot
and debian-blends while still maintaining support for derivative
distributions.

While the vmdebootstrap, debian-cd and debian-boot teams have assisted in
the development of live-wrapper it was ultimately me that chose the name
when filing the ITP bug. Please direct all abuse at me, but please keep it
to either direct mail to myself or debian-{devel,live}@lists.d.o. There is
no need to pollute other lists unless it is directly relevant to that team.

This package will be integrated with the existing Debian Live ecosystem as
planned and my hope is that existing Debian Live developers will be willing
to collaborate. This package will be maintained by the Debian Live team.

I apologise to everyone that has been upset by the ITP bug. The software is
not yet ready for use as a full replacement for live-build, and it was filed
to let people know that the work was ongoing and to collect feedback. This
sort of worked, but the feedback wasn't the kind I was looking for.

Thanks,
Iain.

--

Changed Bug title to 'ITP: live-wrapper -- live image wrapper for vmdebootstrap' from 'ITP: live-build-ng -- live image builder built on vmdebootstrap' Request was from "Iain R. Learmonth" <irl@debian.org> to control@bugs.debian.org. (Tue, 10 Nov 2015 03:33:06 GMT) (full text, mbox, link).

Acknowledgement sent to "Michael ." <keltoiboy@gmail.com>:
Extra info received and forwarded to list. Copy sent to wnpp@debian.org, "Iain R. Learmonth" <irl@debian.org>. (Tue, 10 Nov 2015 04:15:04 GMT) (full text, mbox, link).

Message #162 received at 804315@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

Why do you hope "the existing Debian Live developers will be willing to
collaborate" when it is obvious you were not willing to collaborate?
You have gone about this in the totally wrong way and you are still going
about it in the totally wrong way.
The people who lose in this fiasco are the Debian Live development team and
Debian Live users (of which I am one who, btw,  was hoping to expands
Debian's reach in the South Pacific).
We, Debian Live users, need a stable system to build our iso images. We had
that in Debian Live, you are unable to provide that (by your own
admittance) right now and when Debian Live is shut down there will be no
official support.

On 10 November 2015 at 14:28, Iain R. Learmonth <irl@debian.org> wrote:

> retitle 804315 ITP: live-wrapper -- live image wrapper for vmdebootstrap
> kthxbye
>
> Hi All,
>
> My original aim for this was that this new tool would be integrated into
> the
> existing Debian Live project, and that we would bring the Debian Live
> project into Debian. This is not the way it has gone.
>
> The naming of the package live-build-ng was not intended to serve as a
> request for live-build development to stop, or for the packages to be
> removed from Debian. This was intended to be an evolution of the existing
> ecosystem with tighter integration to the needs of debian-cd, debian-boot
> and debian-blends while still maintaining support for derivative
> distributions.
>
> While the vmdebootstrap, debian-cd and debian-boot teams have assisted in
> the development of live-wrapper it was ultimately me that chose the name
> when filing the ITP bug. Please direct all abuse at me, but please keep it
> to either direct mail to myself or debian-{devel,live}@lists.d.o. There is
> no need to pollute other lists unless it is directly relevant to that team.
>
> This package will be integrated with the existing Debian Live ecosystem as
> planned and my hope is that existing Debian Live developers will be willing
> to collaborate. This package will be maintained by the Debian Live team.
>
> I apologise to everyone that has been upset by the ITP bug. The software is
> not yet ready for use as a full replacement for live-build, and it was
> filed
> to let people know that the work was ongoing and to collect feedback. This
> sort of worked, but the feedback wasn't the kind I was looking for.
>
> Thanks,
> Iain.
>
> --
>
>

[Message part 2 (text/html, inline)]

Acknowledgement sent to Adam Kouse <adam.kouse@gmail.com>:
Extra info received and forwarded to list. Copy sent to wnpp@debian.org, "Iain R. Learmonth" <irl@debian.org>. (Tue, 10 Nov 2015 14:54:17 GMT) (full text, mbox, link).

Message #167 received at 804315@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

In the world of Debian, I'm a nobody. I happily use it for a multitude of
reasons, one of them being live-build. As a casual user I don't see much of
the politics that make up an organization such as Debian. I don't think I
need that kind of clarity, however, to see that this is being handled in
about the worst way possible. Out of the blue, someone rolls up, kicks in
your door and demands you leave your house. Exactly what kind of response
did you think you were going to get to that, Iain? I see Daniel hasn't
responded to you and I don't blame him. I wouldn't either.

Why I appreciate your contributions to Debian, this is just sad. What a
jerk.

[Message part 2 (text/html, inline)]

Acknowledgement sent to Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org>:
Extra info received and forwarded to list. Copy sent to wnpp@debian.org, "Iain R. Learmonth" <irl@debian.org>. (Tue, 10 Nov 2015 16:33:07 GMT) (full text, mbox, link).

Message #172 received at 804315@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

Hi,

On Tue, Nov 10, 2015 at 12:13:54AM +0100, Julian Andres Klode wrote:
> May I suggest debian-cd-live or debian-live-cd as a name? That would
> be close in name to debian-cd, highlighting its use case.

I would advise against these suggestions, because using debian in the name of a
loosely-coupled sub-project (and due to the nature of Debian, all sub-projects
are loosely-coupled) is it implies a sense of "officialness" above and beyond
other software that might co-exist, either now or in the future. (Consider
if/when we decide that debhelper, d-i and various other things need to be
replaced in the future, we will face a similar problem). For that reason, I
think it would be good to avoid using the project name in software names. As
such:

> Or vmdebootstrap-live if you want to focus on vmdebootstrap name-wise (you
> being maintainer here).

Would be fine. (although vmdebootstrap is an accretion on top of debootstrap
in the first place and I'd rather that wasn't the case either, mutter mutter
cognitive burden of Debian tooling proliferation mutter mutter)

On Tue, Nov 10, 2015 at 12:13:54AM +0100, Julian Andres Klode wrote:
> Well, people seem to be happy to "invade" other namespaces, just look
> at how much packages start with "apt-" ;) [which confuses users, because
> they think the APT team is the right team to talk to].

Yes, the *apt* "namespace" is a good example of why *not* to do this. (See
also git-buildpackage, which managed to invade two namespaces at the same
time - although since fixed it seems)

> But we don't have the replacement problem, there is no apt-ng package
> or similar.

...yet :)

It seems Iain has opted for live-wrapper now, which IMHO does not have the
problems of live-build-ng. Clashing with "live-build" is considered rude,
but OTOH "live*" is too-wide a namespace for live-build to claim to itself.

-- 
Jonathan Dowland

Acknowledgement sent to Thorsten Glaser <tg@mirbsd.de>:
Extra info received and forwarded to list. Copy sent to wnpp@debian.org, "Iain R. Learmonth" <irl@debian.org>. (Tue, 10 Nov 2015 21:09:06 GMT) (full text, mbox, link).

Message #177 received at 804315@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

Joerg Jaspert dixit:

>not official", thats just wrong. You may not like its maintainer, you
>may not want that particular software and want to get your own. Thats
>all fine, but this action is not.

This becomes especially ridiculous when one considers that certain
people/parties/cabals inside Debian, which some of the people involved
this time may or may not belong to, deny other then-developers the
ability to want a particular piece of software, instead of that one
they wanted.

Why is it that some people can declare other peoples’ work “not
official” and thus less worth than their own, while that work is
still used with official releases?

Right. Debian, as a social ecosystem, isn’t a welcoming place any more.

I just am surprised that not more people leave it.

bye,
//mirabilos
-- 
“The final straw, to be honest, was probably my amazement at the volume of
petty, peevish whingeing certain of your peers are prone to dish out on
d-devel, telling each other how to talk more like a pretty princess, as though
they were performing some kind of public service.” (someone to me, privately)

Information forwarded to debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org, wnpp@debian.org, "Iain R. Learmonth" <irl@debian.org>:
Bug#804315; Package wnpp. (Fri, 13 Nov 2015 16:03:08 GMT) (full text, mbox, link).

Acknowledgement sent to "John D. Hendrickson" <johnandsara2@cox.net>:
Extra info received and forwarded to list. Copy sent to wnpp@debian.org, "Iain R. Learmonth" <irl@debian.org>. (Fri, 13 Nov 2015 16:03:08 GMT) (full text, mbox, link).

Message #182 received at 804315@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

absolutely rediculous.  it's a GPL free source open system

your supposed to use it in your SPARE time not your business time.

you are NOT supposed to using it for private development without 
funding.  perhaps if a proffesor, paid for such things, and have chosen 
to do so (ie, GRUB is a good example of that, or "gv" ghost view (orig 
and improved) as well).  otherwise it is strictly about hobby time.

(if used for business your totally assume risk, and the world is full of 
books and information to tell you that)

you could accuse "someone" of intently wasting others time by reverse 
engineered uploads to cause intentional time/investment losses (ie, 
inserting build failures to give others headaches): that's illegal since 
the days of Rome.  and it's not easy to prove (perhaps intently, perhaps 
not).

you have absolutely no right to complain about "others using your 
donated time".  zero, none.


> usting. It is nasty. A bit strange to think that I
"know" some of those guys.

My interest in Debian pEd Dixon wrote:
> Be sure to share Daniels story via social media using the buttons on his 
> blog. I hope it wakes up the entire community to what happens when you 
> actually do something right around here! https://t.co/NwWs9AfW87 Thanks,
> 
> On Mon, Nov 9, 2015 at 2:15 PM Richard Newton <rich123409@gmail.com 
> <mailto:rich123409@gmail.com>> wrote:
> 
>     I agree, shame on those responsible. I have been using Debian for
>     almost 15 years and this is the first time I have been ashamed. Add
>     my name to the record "of conscientious objection."
> 
>     RIchard Newton
> 
>     On Mon, Nov 9, 2015 at 11:42 AM, Ralph Amissah
>     <ralph.amissah@gmail.com <mailto:ralph.amissah@gmail.com>> wrote:
> 
>         I post not in anger but sadness, I should not let my voice go
>         uncounted.
> 
>         Attached is my note to Daniel of earlier today, before his
>         posting of
>         "an abrupt end to Debian Live". Debian Live which he said Debian
>         should
>         have (as a Debian developer) in 2006 and went on to deliver, rather
>         nicely (with (and without) help).
> 
>         ----- Forwarded message from Ralph Amissah
>         <ralph.amissah@gmail.com <mailto:ralph.amissah@gmail.com>> -----
> 
>         From: Ralph Amissah <ralph.amissah@gmail.com
>         <mailto:ralph.amissah@gmail.com>>
>         To: Daniel Baumann
>         Subject: outrageous, thievery
>         Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 09:28:44 -0500
>         Message-ID: <20151109142844.GA28261@niu>
>         User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.24 (2015-08-30)
> 
>         Daniel, (already one of the more active Debian Developers then) I
>         remember you telling Debian at Debconf 2006, Mexico about how
>         "we"[1]
>         needed a live-maker within the project. I said then that I
>         thought this
>         one of the most important projects within Debian (I was
>         surprised that
>         there was not more interest and effort offered by others at the
>         time,
>         though there was some, those so keen now did not seem to pay
>         attention
>         then).  Already then it was clear that it would one day be able
>         to and
>         possibly be the preferred way to do a Debian install... as I said,
>         important. I saw how you contributed to Debian then, and I know
>         how you
>         have contributed since. Instead of welcoming you and your work,
>         there
>         seems to have been an effort to isolate you.
> 
>         Well clearly others have seen the fruits of your labor as a
>         threat and
>         with envy, and ripe for their plucking!
> 
>         Outrageous! Disgusting. It is nasty. A bit strange to think that I
>         "know" some of those guys.
> 
>         My interest in Debian proper, dropped with your earlier
>         treatment, it
>         took away the desire to be a closer part of it. At least that
>         took out
>         much of any idealized notion of the inner workings of it. And
>         there have
>         been other moves since. I continue to be amazed by the politics of
>         groups within Debian.  This though has the feel of blatant thievery.
>         Chals characterization of a dictatorial coup would seem to be most
>         accurate.
> 
>         It has no doubt to do with power (perhaps indirectly money is
>         involved
>         as well), your work & work area being seen as strategically
>         important.
>         They do it because they can, & justify it whatever which way
>         they will.
> 
>         I am sorry. I feel pretty bruised on your behalf.
> 
>         We have not spoken in a long while. I hope we have the chance to
>         talk in
>         happier times.
> 
>         Greetings.
>         Ralph
> 
>         P.S. We are ok, not much to report.
> 
>         ----- End forwarded message -----
>         [edits: addition of footnote, &; s/picking/plucking/]
> 
>         Indeed I am a friend of Daniel and primarily a user of Debian (a
>         minor
>         contributor of a package (sisu[2]) that I wrote that I am happy
>         to have in
>         Debian). In other circumstances I would consider myself at least an
>         admirer of individuals involved on the other side of this.
>         Indeed I (use
>         use some of your software daily and) have met a number of you
>         over the
>         years at a number of Debconfs and have fond memories for example of
>         visits to Cambridge when I lived in the U.K. and of being
>         "introduced"
>         to Debian by Debian insiders.
> 
>         Thanks to all who have stood up for Daniel, he is a wonderful,
>         generous,
>         (and capable) person. And yes, I do think him "wronged" by "Debian".
>         There are others that know him pretty well, who have followed a
>         fairly
>         long sequence of events who must be outraged as well.
> 
>         Of course I wish Debian well, but I do not see your "handling"
>         of Daniel
>         as its finest hour. This will no doubt "blow over" as it must
>         ultimately
>         for the good of the project, but it sticks in my craw as it no doubt
>         does others, and there should be some record of conscientious
>         objection.
> 
>         Ralph Amissah
> 
>         [1] to be clear, "we" was Debian.
>         [2] http://www.sisudoc.org/
>             https://qa.debian.org/developer.php?login=sisu@lists.sisudoc.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
>     -- 
>     CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This electronic communication with its
>     contents may contain confidential and/or privileged information. It
>     is solely for the use of the intended recipient(s). Unauthorized
>     interception, review, use, or disclosure is prohibited and may
>     violate applicable laws including the Electronic Communications
>     Privacy Act. If you are not the intended recipient, or authorized to
>     receive for the intended recipient, please contact the sender and
>     destroy all copies of the communication. Thank you for your
>     consideration.
>

Acknowledgement sent to Ed Dixon <eddixonnm@gmail.com>:
Extra info received and forwarded to list. Copy sent to wnpp@debian.org, "Iain R. Learmonth" <irl@debian.org>. (Fri, 13 Nov 2015 16:27:04 GMT) (full text, mbox, link).

Message #187 received at 804315@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

John is your reply to mine suggesting that Daniels message should be
shared? If so you have read much more into it than what I said. I think I
must be misunderstanding your point and reading it wrong. I think it may be
in reply to his message or even this whole mess but even so I still
strongly disagree with what you wrote. Can you clarify your point here for
us more?

Thanks,

On Fri, Nov 13, 2015 at 8:46 AM John D. Hendrickson <johnandsara2@cox.net>
wrote:

> absolutely rediculous.  it's a GPL free source open system
>
> your supposed to use it in your SPARE time not your business time.
>
> you are NOT supposed to using it for private development without
> funding.  perhaps if a proffesor, paid for such things, and have chosen
> to do so (ie, GRUB is a good example of that, or "gv" ghost view (orig
> and improved) as well).  otherwise it is strictly about hobby time.
>
> (if used for business your totally assume risk, and the world is full of
> books and information to tell you that)
>
> you could accuse "someone" of intently wasting others time by reverse
> engineered uploads to cause intentional time/investment losses (ie,
> inserting build failures to give others headaches): that's illegal since
> the days of Rome.  and it's not easy to prove (perhaps intently, perhaps
> not).
>
> you have absolutely no right to complain about "others using your
> donated time".  zero, none.
>
>
>  > usting. It is nasty. A bit strange to think that I
> "know" some of those guys.
>
> My interest in Debian pEd Dixon wrote:
> > Be sure to share Daniels story via social media using the buttons on his
> > blog. I hope it wakes up the entire community to what happens when you
> > actually do something right around here! https://t.co/NwWs9AfW87 Thanks,
> >
> > On Mon, Nov 9, 2015 at 2:15 PM Richard Newton <rich123409@gmail.com
> > <mailto:rich123409@gmail.com>> wrote:
> >
> >     I agree, shame on those responsible. I have been using Debian for
> >     almost 15 years and this is the first time I have been ashamed. Add
> >     my name to the record "of conscientious objection."
> >
> >     RIchard Newton
> >
> >     On Mon, Nov 9, 2015 at 11:42 AM, Ralph Amissah
> >     <ralph.amissah@gmail.com <mailto:ralph.amissah@gmail.com>> wrote:
> >
> >         I post not in anger but sadness, I should not let my voice go
> >         uncounted.
> >
> >         Attached is my note to Daniel of earlier today, before his
> >         posting of
> >         "an abrupt end to Debian Live". Debian Live which he said Debian
> >         should
> >         have (as a Debian developer) in 2006 and went on to deliver,
> rather
> >         nicely (with (and without) help).
> >
> >         ----- Forwarded message from Ralph Amissah
> >         <ralph.amissah@gmail.com <mailto:ralph.amissah@gmail.com>> -----
> >
> >         From: Ralph Amissah <ralph.amissah@gmail.com
> >         <mailto:ralph.amissah@gmail.com>>
> >         To: Daniel Baumann
> >         Subject: outrageous, thievery
> >         Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 09:28:44 -0500
> >         Message-ID: <20151109142844.GA28261@niu>
> >         User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.24 (2015-08-30)
> >
> >         Daniel, (already one of the more active Debian Developers then) I
> >         remember you telling Debian at Debconf 2006, Mexico about how
> >         "we"[1]
> >         needed a live-maker within the project. I said then that I
> >         thought this
> >         one of the most important projects within Debian (I was
> >         surprised that
> >         there was not more interest and effort offered by others at the
> >         time,
> >         though there was some, those so keen now did not seem to pay
> >         attention
> >         then).  Already then it was clear that it would one day be able
> >         to and
> >         possibly be the preferred way to do a Debian install... as I
> said,
> >         important. I saw how you contributed to Debian then, and I know
> >         how you
> >         have contributed since. Instead of welcoming you and your work,
> >         there
> >         seems to have been an effort to isolate you.
> >
> >         Well clearly others have seen the fruits of your labor as a
> >         threat and
> >         with envy, and ripe for their plucking!
> >
> >         Outrageous! Disgusting. It is nasty. A bit strange to think that
> I
> >         "know" some of those guys.
> >
> >         My interest in Debian proper, dropped with your earlier
> >         treatment, it
> >         took away the desire to be a closer part of it. At least that
> >         took out
> >         much of any idealized notion of the inner workings of it. And
> >         there have
> >         been other moves since. I continue to be amazed by the politics
> of
> >         groups within Debian.  This though has the feel of blatant
> thievery.
> >         Chals characterization of a dictatorial coup would seem to be
> most
> >         accurate.
> >
> >         It has no doubt to do with power (perhaps indirectly money is
> >         involved
> >         as well), your work & work area being seen as strategically
> >         important.
> >         They do it because they can, & justify it whatever which way
> >         they will.
> >
> >         I am sorry. I feel pretty bruised on your behalf.
> >
> >         We have not spoken in a long while. I hope we have the chance to
> >         talk in
> >         happier times.
> >
> >         Greetings.
> >         Ralph
> >
> >         P.S. We are ok, not much to report.
> >
> >         ----- End forwarded message -----
> >         [edits: addition of footnote, &; s/picking/plucking/]
> >
> >         Indeed I am a friend of Daniel and primarily a user of Debian (a
> >         minor
> >         contributor of a package (sisu[2]) that I wrote that I am happy
> >         to have in
> >         Debian). In other circumstances I would consider myself at least
> an
> >         admirer of individuals involved on the other side of this.
> >         Indeed I (use
> >         use some of your software daily and) have met a number of you
> >         over the
> >         years at a number of Debconfs and have fond memories for example
> of
> >         visits to Cambridge when I lived in the U.K. and of being
> >         "introduced"
> >         to Debian by Debian insiders.
> >
> >         Thanks to all who have stood up for Daniel, he is a wonderful,
> >         generous,
> >         (and capable) person. And yes, I do think him "wronged" by
> "Debian".
> >         There are others that know him pretty well, who have followed a
> >         fairly
> >         long sequence of events who must be outraged as well.
> >
> >         Of course I wish Debian well, but I do not see your "handling"
> >         of Daniel
> >         as its finest hour. This will no doubt "blow over" as it must
> >         ultimately
> >         for the good of the project, but it sticks in my craw as it no
> doubt
> >         does others, and there should be some record of conscientious
> >         objection.
> >
> >         Ralph Amissah
> >
> >         [1] to be clear, "we" was Debian.
> >         [2] http://www.sisudoc.org/
> >
> https://qa.debian.org/developer.php?login=sisu@lists.sisudoc.org
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >     --
> >     CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This electronic communication with its
> >     contents may contain confidential and/or privileged information. It
> >     is solely for the use of the intended recipient(s). Unauthorized
> >     interception, review, use, or disclosure is prohibited and may
> >     violate applicable laws including the Electronic Communications
> >     Privacy Act. If you are not the intended recipient, or authorized to
> >     receive for the intended recipient, please contact the sender and
> >     destroy all copies of the communication. Thank you for your
> >     consideration.
> >
>
>

[Message part 2 (text/html, inline)]

Added tag(s) pending. Request was from "Iain R. Learmonth" <irl@debian.org> to control@bugs.debian.org. (Sat, 21 Nov 2015 15:33:04 GMT) (full text, mbox, link).

Information forwarded to debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org, wnpp@debian.org, "Iain R. Learmonth" <irl@debian.org>:
Bug#804315; Package wnpp. (Mon, 23 May 2016 06:30:04 GMT) (full text, mbox, link).

Acknowledgement sent to Meiritbaby@hotmail.com:
Extra info received and forwarded to list. Copy sent to wnpp@debian.org, "Iain R. Learmonth" <irl@debian.org>. (Mon, 23 May 2016 06:30:04 GMT) (full text, mbox, link).

Message #194 received at 804315@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):


-- 
Hello,
Can i talk with you..?

Reply sent to irl@debian.org (Iain R. Learmonth):
You have taken responsibility. (Fri, 08 Jul 2016 00:03:07 GMT) (full text, mbox, link).

Notification sent to "Iain R. Learmonth" <irl@debian.org>:
Bug acknowledged by developer. (Fri, 08 Jul 2016 00:03:07 GMT) (full text, mbox, link).

Message #199 received at 804315-close@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

Source: live-wrapper
Source-Version: 0.1

We believe that the bug you reported is fixed in the latest version of
live-wrapper, which is due to be installed in the Debian FTP archive.

A summary of the changes between this version and the previous one is
attached.

Thank you for reporting the bug, which will now be closed.  If you
have further comments please address them to 804315@bugs.debian.org,
and the maintainer will reopen the bug report if appropriate.

Debian distribution maintenance software
pp.
Iain R. Learmonth <irl@debian.org> (supplier of updated live-wrapper package)

(This message was generated automatically at their request; if you
believe that there is a problem with it please contact the archive
administrators by mailing ftpmaster@ftp-master.debian.org)


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Hash: SHA1

Format: 1.8
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2015 15:18:36 +0000
Source: live-wrapper
Binary: live-wrapper live-wrapper-doc
Architecture: source all
Version: 0.1
Distribution: unstable
Urgency: medium
Maintainer: Debian Live <debian-live@lists.debian.org>
Changed-By: Iain R. Learmonth <irl@debian.org>
Description:
 live-wrapper - Wrapper for vmdebootstrap for creating live images
 live-wrapper-doc - Wrapper for vmdebootstrap for creating live images (Documentation
Closes: 804315
Changes:
 live-wrapper (0.1) unstable; urgency=medium
 .
   * Initial release. (Closes: #804315)
Checksums-Sha1:
 8bad11e308d424a6a231083cee59e64f07ca0ecf 1423 live-wrapper_0.1.dsc
 69de44803af2b6d08b4c8f03eacd5989f7ad264b 11652 live-wrapper_0.1.tar.xz
 42f2491a3dc1b51431b459aba79888e8c790b085 31954 live-wrapper-doc_0.1_all.deb
 5f58412a9966131a1b1a468ac59cd82349287af9 6566 live-wrapper_0.1_all.deb
Checksums-Sha256:
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 abc5903d800440c27dfa108a4ac20ff38284d01ffaf4d6da554e3c0b035f1780 11652 live-wrapper_0.1.tar.xz
 ded28129d7279017c76409d831e8ea9afc5357ec3bc7387d4429a0df35a73e98 31954 live-wrapper-doc_0.1_all.deb
 17e1d3a0bd478b83f14ea0c465ba2dcf6cfc1e5c36ccace523e27a4bdfa44209 6566 live-wrapper_0.1_all.deb
Files:
 0201d7d3c98685295795241e726940c9 1423 misc optional live-wrapper_0.1.dsc
 55c922da96aec944c1f103c5095840d6 11652 misc optional live-wrapper_0.1.tar.xz
 1bda76f2354a05082a929e65b0169873 31954 doc optional live-wrapper-doc_0.1_all.deb
 beae202592679af0ff3ad943c938fd23 6566 misc optional live-wrapper_0.1_all.deb

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Bug archived. Request was from Debbugs Internal Request <owner@bugs.debian.org> to internal_control@bugs.debian.org. (Fri, 05 Aug 2016 07:29:20 GMT) (full text, mbox, link).

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Debian Bug report logs - #804315 ITP: live-wrapper -- live image wrapper for vmdebootstrap

Debian Bug report logs - #804315
ITP: live-wrapper -- live image wrapper for vmdebootstrap