Debian Bug report logs - #718855
desktop=xfce installs Gnome stuff and evenmore gnome appears as the default window manager from lightdm

Package: tasksel; Maintainer for tasksel is Debian Install System Team <debian-boot@lists.debian.org>; Source for tasksel is src:tasksel.

Reported by: Josep Lladonosa <jlladono@gmail.com>

Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2013 08:18:02 UTC

Severity: normal

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Report forwarded to debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org, Debian Install Team <debian-boot@lists.debian.org>:
Bug#718855; Package installation-reports. (Tue, 06 Aug 2013 08:18:06 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Acknowledgement sent to Josep Lladonosa <jlladono@gmail.com>:
New Bug report received and forwarded. Copy sent to Debian Install Team <debian-boot@lists.debian.org>. (Tue, 06 Aug 2013 08:18:06 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #5 received at submit@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox):

From: Josep Lladonosa <jlladono@gmail.com>
To: Debian Bug Tracking System <submit@bugs.debian.org>
Subject: desktop=xfce installs Gnome stuff and evenmore gnome appears as the default window manager from lightdm
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2013 10:14:38 +0200
Package: installation-reports

Boot method: iso image of testing installer in a USB pendrive.
Image version: http://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/weekly-builds/amd64/iso-cd/debian-testing-amd64-xfce-CD-1.iso
Date: 2013-08-06 8:00:00 GMT+2

Machine: MSI GT60
Processor: i7-3630QM
Memory: 8 GiB
Partitions: /boot, / (in sda disk)


 Comments/Problems:

It is just what I said in the subject: I chose to install XFCE as the
Window Manager for X, but Gnome installs. I supposed that thins kind
of installation would set XFCE as the only WM. And I add that in this
case, from lightdm, default WM is not XFCE


-- 
--
Salutacions...Josep
--



Information forwarded to debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org, Debian Install Team <debian-boot@lists.debian.org>:
Bug#718855; Package installation-reports. (Wed, 07 Aug 2013 14:27:05 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Acknowledgement sent to Josep Lladonosa <jlladono@gmail.com>:
Extra info received and forwarded to list. Copy sent to Debian Install Team <debian-boot@lists.debian.org>. (Wed, 07 Aug 2013 14:27:05 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #10 received at 718855@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox):

From: Josep Lladonosa <jlladono@gmail.com>
To: 718855@bugs.debian.org
Subject: desktop=xfce installs Gnome stuff and evenmore gnome appears as the default window manager from lightdm
Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2013 16:22:35 +0200
Hello,

I think that installation of complete Gnome even with the election of
XFCE is caused by network-manager-gnome package. I use wifi connection
to install from debian-installer.

If this network manager is installed, then all Gnome installs, because
its default configuration is to install recommended packages, as well.

Instead, I tried to do:

apt-get install network-manager-gnome --no-install-recommends

and then only dependencies are installed (not all Gnome, only about 30
MB. It was hundreds, with the default!)

I don't know if this should be reported to network-manager-gnome
maintainers, but I wanted to inform here (I know that in the past
there was an intense discussion about this issue...)

-- 
--
Salutacions...Josep
--



Information forwarded to debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org, Debian Install Team <debian-boot@lists.debian.org>:
Bug#718855; Package installation-reports. (Wed, 07 Aug 2013 17:51:14 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Acknowledgement sent to Christian PERRIER <bubulle@debian.org>:
Extra info received and forwarded to list. Copy sent to Debian Install Team <debian-boot@lists.debian.org>. (Wed, 07 Aug 2013 17:51:14 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #15 received at 718855@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox):

From: Christian PERRIER <bubulle@debian.org>
To: Jape Person <japers@comcast.net>, Josep Lladonosa <jlladono@gmail.com>
Cc: 718855@bugs.debian.org, pkg-xfce-devel@lists.alioth.debian.org
Subject: Re: Bug#718855: desktop=xfce installs Gnome stuff and evenmore gnome appears as the default window manager from lightdm
Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2013 19:46:27 +0200
[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]
reassign 718855 tasksel
thanks

Quoting Jape Person (japers@comcast.net):
> On 08/07/2013 10:22 AM, Josep Lladonosa wrote:
> > Hello,
> > 
> > I think that installation of complete Gnome even with the election of
> > XFCE is caused by network-manager-gnome package. I use wifi connection
> > to install from debian-installer.
> > 
> > If this network manager is installed, then all Gnome installs, because
> > its default configuration is to install recommended packages, as well.
> > 
> > Instead, I tried to do:
> > 
> > apt-get install network-manager-gnome --no-install-recommends
> > 
> > and then only dependencies are installed (not all Gnome, only about 30
> > MB. It was hundreds, with the default!)
> > 
> > I don't know if this should be reported to network-manager-gnome
> > maintainers, but I wanted to inform here (I know that in the past
> > there was an intense discussion about this issue...)
> > 
> I saw this slightly nightmarish scenario on my established Debian testing / Xfce
> systems and got around it by telling aptitude (the package manger I use) to NOT
> install recommends. Now I have to examine recommends each time I install
> something to make the determination myself as to whether or not to install them.

All this confirms that the bug belongs to tasksel and, precisely, how
the xfce-desktop is built:

Package: task-xfce-desktop
Architecture: all
Description: Xfce desktop environment
 This task package is used to install the Debian desktop, featuring
 the Xfce desktop environment, and with other packages that Debian users
 expect to have available on the desktop.
Depends: ${misc:Depends}, 
        task-desktop,
# The basics of xfce, not the whole thing.
        xfce4,
        lightdm
Recommends:
# well known xfce4 enhancements
        xfce4-goodies,
        xfce4-power-manager,
        xfce4-mixer,
        xfce4-terminal,
# xfce text editor  
        mousepad,
# calendar application  
        orage,
# libreoffice widgets using just gtk
        libreoffice-gtk,
# xfce is really improved by using dbus
        dbus-x11,
# support for scanners
        xsane,
# media players
        vlc,
        quodlibet,
# pdf viewer
        evince-gtk,
# icon theme
        tango-icon-theme,
# network management
        network-manager-gnome,
# package management
        synaptic,
.../...


We need to have Xfce maintainers to give their unput, here.

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Bug reassigned from package 'installation-reports' to 'tasksel'. Request was from Christian PERRIER <bubulle@debian.org> to control@bugs.debian.org. (Wed, 07 Aug 2013 17:51:17 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Information forwarded to debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org, Debian Install System Team <debian-boot@lists.debian.org>:
Bug#718855; Package tasksel. (Mon, 07 Oct 2013 17:39:04 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Acknowledgement sent to Joey Hess <joeyh@debian.org>:
Extra info received and forwarded to list. Copy sent to Debian Install System Team <debian-boot@lists.debian.org>. (Mon, 07 Oct 2013 17:39:04 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #22 received at 718855@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox):

From: Joey Hess <joeyh@debian.org>
To: 718855@bugs.debian.org
Cc: pkg-xfce-devel@lists.alioth.debian.org, pkg-gnome-maintainers@lists.alioth.debian.org
Subject: network-manager-gnome -> full gnome recommends chain
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2013 13:38:16 -0400
[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]
network-manager-gnome recommnds gnome-bluetooth recommends
gnome-control-center recommends gnome-session

Not sure what to do about this. gnome-bluetooth seems to have
that recommends because its control panel was moved into
gnome-control-center and is presumably used by its UI.

Perhaps gnome-control-center does not need to recommend gnome-session?

The only change we could make in tasksel is switch !gnome to wicd, but
last I tried it, it was not as good a choice for the average desktop user.

Threads on debian-user indicate this is highly confusing behavior to
users who install XFCE and end up with a default login to gnome. (So
much so that they seem to think it also affects stable, which I highly
doubt, especially since alcohol was involved in some of the users'
testing.)

-- 
see shy jo
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Information forwarded to debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org, Debian Install System Team <debian-boot@lists.debian.org>:
Bug#718855; Package tasksel. (Mon, 07 Oct 2013 18:33:09 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Acknowledgement sent to Emilio Pozuelo Monfort <pochu@debian.org>:
Extra info received and forwarded to list. Copy sent to Debian Install System Team <debian-boot@lists.debian.org>. (Mon, 07 Oct 2013 18:33:09 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #27 received at 718855@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox):

From: Emilio Pozuelo Monfort <pochu@debian.org>
To: Joey Hess <joeyh@debian.org>
Cc: 718855@bugs.debian.org, pkg-xfce-devel@lists.alioth.debian.org, pkg-gnome-maintainers@lists.alioth.debian.org
Subject: Re: network-manager-gnome -> full gnome recommends chain
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2013 20:30:29 +0200
On 07/10/13 19:38, Joey Hess wrote:
> network-manager-gnome recommnds gnome-bluetooth recommends
> gnome-control-center recommends gnome-session
> 
> Not sure what to do about this. gnome-bluetooth seems to have
> that recommends because its control panel was moved into
> gnome-control-center and is presumably used by its UI.
> 
> Perhaps gnome-control-center does not need to recommend gnome-session?

We talked about exactly this issue on irc this weekend and we didn't see a
reason for g-c-c to recommend gnome-session, so that can be dropped. I've gone
ahead and applied that in svn for the next upload.

Cheers,
Emilio

Emilio



Information forwarded to debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org, Debian Install System Team <debian-boot@lists.debian.org>:
Bug#718855; Package tasksel. (Tue, 08 Oct 2013 13:06:08 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Acknowledgement sent to Yves-Alexis Perez <corsac@debian.org>:
Extra info received and forwarded to list. Copy sent to Debian Install System Team <debian-boot@lists.debian.org>. (Tue, 08 Oct 2013 13:06:08 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #32 received at 718855@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox):

From: Yves-Alexis Perez <corsac@debian.org>
To: Emilio Pozuelo Monfort <pochu@debian.org>
Cc: Joey Hess <joeyh@debian.org>, 718855@bugs.debian.org, pkg-xfce-devel@lists.alioth.debian.org, pkg-gnome-maintainers@lists.alioth.debian.org
Subject: Re: [Pkg-xfce-devel] network-manager-gnome -> full gnome recommends chain
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2013 15:02:51 +0200
[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]
On lun., 2013-10-07 at 20:30 +0200, Emilio Pozuelo Monfort wrote:
> On 07/10/13 19:38, Joey Hess wrote:
> > network-manager-gnome recommnds gnome-bluetooth recommends
> > gnome-control-center recommends gnome-session
> > 
> > Not sure what to do about this. gnome-bluetooth seems to have
> > that recommends because its control panel was moved into
> > gnome-control-center and is presumably used by its UI.
> > 
> > Perhaps gnome-control-center does not need to recommend gnome-session?
> 
> We talked about exactly this issue on irc this weekend and we didn't see a
> reason for g-c-c to recommend gnome-session, so that can be dropped. I've gone
> ahead and applied that in svn for the next upload.

I still don' think having gnome-control-center installed on Debian Xfce
(or any !gnome) installations is a good idea, to be honest. I personally
use network-manager-gnome nm-applet under Xfce because it doesn't
actually needs GNOME bits, so imho either the gnome-bluetooth recommends
should be dropped from network-manager-gnome, or the
gnome-control-center one dropped from gnome-bluetooth.

Or tasksel could stop installing recommends, like it was done before,
and people involved in the various tasks can handle the list explicitly.

Regards,
-- 
Yves-Alexis
[signature.asc (application/pgp-signature, inline)]

Information forwarded to debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org, Debian Install System Team <debian-boot@lists.debian.org>:
Bug#718855; Package tasksel. (Tue, 08 Oct 2013 21:57:05 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Acknowledgement sent to Michael Biebl <biebl@debian.org>:
Extra info received and forwarded to list. Copy sent to Debian Install System Team <debian-boot@lists.debian.org>. (Tue, 08 Oct 2013 21:57:05 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #37 received at 718855@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox):

From: Michael Biebl <biebl@debian.org>
To: Yves-Alexis Perez <corsac@debian.org>
Cc: Emilio Pozuelo Monfort <pochu@debian.org>, 718855@bugs.debian.org, pkg-xfce-devel@lists.alioth.debian.org, Joey Hess <joeyh@debian.org>, pkg-gnome-maintainers@lists.alioth.debian.org
Subject: Re: [Pkg-xfce-devel] network-manager-gnome -> full gnome recommends chain
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2013 23:54:03 +0200
[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]
Am 08.10.2013 15:02, schrieb Yves-Alexis Perez:
> I still don' think having gnome-control-center installed on Debian Xfce
> (or any !gnome) installations is a good idea, to be honest. I personally
> use network-manager-gnome nm-applet under Xfce because it doesn't
> actually needs GNOME bits, so imho either the gnome-bluetooth recommends
> should be dropped from network-manager-gnome, or the
> gnome-control-center one dropped from gnome-bluetooth.

Both recommends are there for a reason. gnome-bluetooth relies heavily
on gnome-control-center when you try to pair / manage devices and
network-manager-applet relies on gnome-bluetooth for DUN and PAN
connections. So no, I don't see those recommends go away.

Michael


-- 
Why is it that all of the instruments seeking intelligent life in the
universe are pointed away from Earth?

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Information forwarded to debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org, Debian Install System Team <debian-boot@lists.debian.org>:
Bug#718855; Package tasksel. (Wed, 09 Oct 2013 05:45:04 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Acknowledgement sent to Yves-Alexis Perez <corsac@debian.org>:
Extra info received and forwarded to list. Copy sent to Debian Install System Team <debian-boot@lists.debian.org>. (Wed, 09 Oct 2013 05:45:04 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #42 received at 718855@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox):

From: Yves-Alexis Perez <corsac@debian.org>
To: Michael Biebl <biebl@debian.org>
Cc: Emilio Pozuelo Monfort <pochu@debian.org>, 718855@bugs.debian.org, pkg-xfce-devel@lists.alioth.debian.org, Joey Hess <joeyh@debian.org>, pkg-gnome-maintainers@lists.alioth.debian.org
Subject: Re: [Pkg-xfce-devel] network-manager-gnome -> full gnome recommends chain
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2013 07:41:00 +0200
[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]
On mar., 2013-10-08 at 23:54 +0200, Michael Biebl wrote:
> Am 08.10.2013 15:02, schrieb Yves-Alexis Perez:
> > I still don' think having gnome-control-center installed on Debian Xfce
> > (or any !gnome) installations is a good idea, to be honest. I personally
> > use network-manager-gnome nm-applet under Xfce because it doesn't
> > actually needs GNOME bits, so imho either the gnome-bluetooth recommends
> > should be dropped from network-manager-gnome, or the
> > gnome-control-center one dropped from gnome-bluetooth.
> 
> Both recommends are there for a reason. gnome-bluetooth relies heavily
> on gnome-control-center when you try to pair / manage devices and
> network-manager-applet relies on gnome-bluetooth for DUN and PAN
> connections. So no, I don't see those recommends go away.
> 
Then we should make tasksel stop installing recommends. Or maybe I
should add a conflict in task-xfce-desktop (although I'm not so sure it
works fine).

Regards,
-- 
Yves-Alexis
[signature.asc (application/pgp-signature, inline)]

Information forwarded to debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org, Debian Install System Team <debian-boot@lists.debian.org>:
Bug#718855; Package tasksel. (Wed, 09 Oct 2013 06:21:09 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Acknowledgement sent to Charles Plessy <plessy@debian.org>:
Extra info received and forwarded to list. Copy sent to Debian Install System Team <debian-boot@lists.debian.org>. (Wed, 09 Oct 2013 06:21:09 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #47 received at 718855@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox):

From: Charles Plessy <plessy@debian.org>
To: Yves-Alexis Perez <corsac@debian.org>, 718855@bugs.debian.org
Cc: Michael Biebl <biebl@debian.org>, Emilio Pozuelo Monfort <pochu@debian.org>, pkg-xfce-devel@lists.alioth.debian.org, Joey Hess <joeyh@debian.org>, pkg-gnome-maintainers@lists.alioth.debian.org
Subject: Re: Bug#718855: [Pkg-xfce-devel] network-manager-gnome -> full gnome recommends chain
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2013 15:16:22 +0900
Le Wed, Oct 09, 2013 at 07:41:00AM +0200, Yves-Alexis Perez a écrit :
> On mar., 2013-10-08 at 23:54 +0200, Michael Biebl wrote:
> > Am 08.10.2013 15:02, schrieb Yves-Alexis Perez:
> > > I still don' think having gnome-control-center installed on Debian Xfce
> > > (or any !gnome) installations is a good idea, to be honest. I personally
> > > use network-manager-gnome nm-applet under Xfce because it doesn't
> > > actually needs GNOME bits, so imho either the gnome-bluetooth recommends
> > > should be dropped from network-manager-gnome, or the
> > > gnome-control-center one dropped from gnome-bluetooth.
> > 
> > Both recommends are there for a reason. gnome-bluetooth relies heavily
> > on gnome-control-center when you try to pair / manage devices and
> > network-manager-applet relies on gnome-bluetooth for DUN and PAN
> > connections. So no, I don't see those recommends go away.
> > 
> Then we should make tasksel stop installing recommends. Or maybe I
> should add a conflict in task-xfce-desktop (although I'm not so sure it
> works fine).

It looks like that the problem is that when two desktop systems are installed,
the one that pops up by default is not necessarly the one that the user wanted.

If we can assume that the user is not bothered that GNOME packages are
installed on the system despite they are not used, then the solution would be
to ensure that if the task-xfce-desktop is the only desktop task installed,
then the then the login managers should recogise it and propose XFCE a a
default ?  (dpkg triggers might help here.)

Cheers,

-- 
Charles Plessy
Tsurumi, Kanagawa, Japan



Information forwarded to debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org, Debian Install System Team <debian-boot@lists.debian.org>:
Bug#718855; Package tasksel. (Wed, 09 Oct 2013 06:27:04 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Acknowledgement sent to Yves-Alexis Perez <corsac@debian.org>:
Extra info received and forwarded to list. Copy sent to Debian Install System Team <debian-boot@lists.debian.org>. (Wed, 09 Oct 2013 06:27:04 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #52 received at 718855@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox):

From: Yves-Alexis Perez <corsac@debian.org>
To: Charles Plessy <plessy@debian.org>
Cc: 718855@bugs.debian.org, Michael Biebl <biebl@debian.org>, Emilio Pozuelo Monfort <pochu@debian.org>, pkg-xfce-devel@lists.alioth.debian.org, Joey Hess <joeyh@debian.org>, pkg-gnome-maintainers@lists.alioth.debian.org
Subject: Re: Bug#718855: [Pkg-xfce-devel] network-manager-gnome -> full gnome recommends chain
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2013 08:25:19 +0200
[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]
On mer., 2013-10-09 at 15:16 +0900, Charles Plessy wrote:
> It looks like that the problem is that when two desktop systems are installed,
> the one that pops up by default is not necessarly the one that the user wanted.

That's a point, althought alternatives can be used here.
> 
> If we can assume that the user is not bothered that GNOME packages are
> installed on the system despite they are not used,

That's wrong actually. Packages can modify system behavior when they're
installed without the user knowing, and they sure can be bothered.
Especially here, the major point is that no GNOME packages should be
implicitly installed, only explicit dependencies should be added, imho.

Regards,
-- 
Yves-Alexis
[signature.asc (application/pgp-signature, inline)]

Information forwarded to debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org, Debian Install System Team <debian-boot@lists.debian.org>:
Bug#718855; Package tasksel. (Wed, 09 Oct 2013 08:45:13 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Acknowledgement sent to Per Olofsson <pelle@debian.org>:
Extra info received and forwarded to list. Copy sent to Debian Install System Team <debian-boot@lists.debian.org>. (Wed, 09 Oct 2013 08:45:13 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #57 received at 718855@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox):

From: Per Olofsson <pelle@debian.org>
To: Michael Biebl <biebl@debian.org>, 718855@bugs.debian.org
Cc: Yves-Alexis Perez <corsac@debian.org>, Emilio Pozuelo Monfort <pochu@debian.org>, pkg-xfce-devel@lists.alioth.debian.org, Joey Hess <joeyh@debian.org>, pkg-gnome-maintainers@lists.alioth.debian.org
Subject: Re: Bug#718855: [Pkg-xfce-devel] network-manager-gnome -> full gnome recommends chain
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2013 10:29:10 +0200
Hi,

On Tue, Oct 08, 2013 at 23:54 +0200, Michael Biebl wrote:
> Both recommends are there for a reason. gnome-bluetooth relies heavily
> on gnome-control-center when you try to pair / manage devices and
> network-manager-applet relies on gnome-bluetooth for DUN and PAN
> connections. So no, I don't see those recommends go away.

According to policy, "The Recommends field should list packages that
would be found together with this one in all but unusual
installations".

Is it really unusual to use Network Manager without bluetooth? Doesn't
most people use Network Manager to connect to wifi and ethernet?

-- 
Pelle



Information forwarded to debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org, Debian Install System Team <debian-boot@lists.debian.org>:
Bug#718855; Package tasksel. (Wed, 09 Oct 2013 08:54:04 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Acknowledgement sent to Emilio Pozuelo Monfort <pochu@debian.org>:
Extra info received and forwarded to list. Copy sent to Debian Install System Team <debian-boot@lists.debian.org>. (Wed, 09 Oct 2013 08:54:04 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #62 received at 718855@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox):

From: Emilio Pozuelo Monfort <pochu@debian.org>
To: Per Olofsson <pelle@debian.org>
Cc: Michael Biebl <biebl@debian.org>, 718855@bugs.debian.org, Yves-Alexis Perez <corsac@debian.org>, pkg-xfce-devel@lists.alioth.debian.org, Joey Hess <joeyh@debian.org>, pkg-gnome-maintainers@lists.alioth.debian.org
Subject: Re: Bug#718855: [Pkg-xfce-devel] network-manager-gnome -> full gnome recommends chain
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2013 10:50:14 +0200
On 09/10/13 10:29, Per Olofsson wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> On Tue, Oct 08, 2013 at 23:54 +0200, Michael Biebl wrote:
>> Both recommends are there for a reason. gnome-bluetooth relies heavily
>> on gnome-control-center when you try to pair / manage devices and
>> network-manager-applet relies on gnome-bluetooth for DUN and PAN
>> connections. So no, I don't see those recommends go away.
> 
> According to policy, "The Recommends field should list packages that
> would be found together with this one in all but unusual
> installations".
> 
> Is it really unusual to use Network Manager without bluetooth? Doesn't
> most people use Network Manager to connect to wifi and ethernet?

So what? This is just a recommends, you can install NM without gnome-bluetooth
if you so desire. But in the general case, we want users to also get PAN/DUN
support, so recommends is very appropriate.

I have dropped the gnome-session recommends from gnome-control-center, isn't
that enough to stop all of gnome from being installed when xfce is selected in
tasksel?

Emilio



Information forwarded to debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org, Debian Install System Team <debian-boot@lists.debian.org>:
Bug#718855; Package tasksel. (Wed, 09 Oct 2013 10:54:04 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Acknowledgement sent to Yves-Alexis Perez <corsac@debian.org>:
Extra info received and forwarded to list. Copy sent to Debian Install System Team <debian-boot@lists.debian.org>. (Wed, 09 Oct 2013 10:54:04 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #67 received at 718855@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox):

From: Yves-Alexis Perez <corsac@debian.org>
To: Emilio Pozuelo Monfort <pochu@debian.org>
Cc: Per Olofsson <pelle@debian.org>, Michael Biebl <biebl@debian.org>, 718855@bugs.debian.org, pkg-xfce-devel@lists.alioth.debian.org, Joey Hess <joeyh@debian.org>, pkg-gnome-maintainers@lists.alioth.debian.org
Subject: Re: Bug#718855: [Pkg-xfce-devel] network-manager-gnome -> full gnome recommends chain
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2013 12:51:11 +0200
[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]
On mer., 2013-10-09 at 10:50 +0200, Emilio Pozuelo Monfort wrote:
> On 09/10/13 10:29, Per Olofsson wrote:
> > Hi,
> > 
> > On Tue, Oct 08, 2013 at 23:54 +0200, Michael Biebl wrote:
> >> Both recommends are there for a reason. gnome-bluetooth relies heavily
> >> on gnome-control-center when you try to pair / manage devices and
> >> network-manager-applet relies on gnome-bluetooth for DUN and PAN
> >> connections. So no, I don't see those recommends go away.
> > 
> > According to policy, "The Recommends field should list packages that
> > would be found together with this one in all but unusual
> > installations".
> > 
> > Is it really unusual to use Network Manager without bluetooth? Doesn't
> > most people use Network Manager to connect to wifi and ethernet?
> 
> So what? This is just a recommends, you can install NM without gnome-bluetooth
> if you so desire. But in the general case, we want users to also get PAN/DUN
> support, so recommends is very appropriate.

This is not the general case. This is the installation, where the tasks
maintainers have selected a package set which fits a specific intent. In
Xfce case, we're ok to have network-manager, we then accept
network-manager-gnome because there's no other GTK+ NM client than
nm-applet, but that's all. We don't really need gnome-bluetooth
(although I think we'd be fine with it) and we definitely don't need
gnome-control-center. Also, I have no idea how well behaved
gnome-bluetooth is when not running under GNOME.
> 
> I have dropped the gnome-session recommends from gnome-control-center, isn't
> that enough to stop all of gnome from being installed when xfce is selected in
> tasksel?

No, see above.

Regards,
-- 
Yves-Alexis
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Information forwarded to debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org, Debian Install System Team <debian-boot@lists.debian.org>:
Bug#718855; Package tasksel. (Wed, 09 Oct 2013 20:27:04 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #70 received at 718855@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox):

From: Philipp Kern <pkern@debian.org>
To: Yves-Alexis Perez <corsac@debian.org>, 718855@bugs.debian.org
Cc: Emilio Pozuelo Monfort <pochu@debian.org>, Per Olofsson <pelle@debian.org>, Michael Biebl <biebl@debian.org>, pkg-xfce-devel@lists.alioth.debian.org, Joey Hess <joeyh@debian.org>, pkg-gnome-maintainers@lists.alioth.debian.org
Subject: Re: Bug#718855: [Pkg-xfce-devel] network-manager-gnome -> full gnome recommends chain
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2013 22:25:28 +0200
[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]
On Wed, Oct 09, 2013 at 12:51:11PM +0200, Yves-Alexis Perez wrote:
> This is not the general case. This is the installation, where the tasks
> maintainers have selected a package set which fits a specific intent. In
> Xfce case, we're ok to have network-manager, we then accept
> network-manager-gnome because there's no other GTK+ NM client than
> nm-applet, but that's all. We don't really need gnome-bluetooth
> (although I think we'd be fine with it) and we definitely don't need
> gnome-control-center. Also, I have no idea how well behaved
> gnome-bluetooth is when not running under GNOME.

It's probably only then not well-behaved when gnome-control-center is
missing.  (Because really, that's where the pairing is.)

Kind regards
Philipp Kern
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Information forwarded to debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org, Debian Install System Team <debian-boot@lists.debian.org>:
Bug#718855; Package tasksel. (Thu, 10 Oct 2013 15:36:05 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Acknowledgement sent to Joey Hess <joeyh@debian.org>:
Extra info received and forwarded to list. Copy sent to Debian Install System Team <debian-boot@lists.debian.org>. (Thu, 10 Oct 2013 15:36:05 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #75 received at 718855@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox):

From: Joey Hess <joeyh@debian.org>
To: Yves-Alexis Perez <corsac@debian.org>
Cc: Emilio Pozuelo Monfort <pochu@debian.org>, 718855@bugs.debian.org, pkg-xfce-devel@lists.alioth.debian.org, pkg-gnome-maintainers@lists.alioth.debian.org
Subject: Re: [Pkg-xfce-devel] network-manager-gnome -> full gnome recommends chain
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2013 11:32:24 -0400
[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]
Yves-Alexis Perez wrote:
> Or tasksel could stop installing recommends, like it was done before,
> and people involved in the various tasks can handle the list explicitly.

This thread seems to have gone off on a tangent after the correct fix
has already been indentified and committed by Emilio.

-- 
see shy jo
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Information forwarded to debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org, Debian Install System Team <debian-boot@lists.debian.org>:
Bug#718855; Package tasksel. (Sun, 13 Oct 2013 19:15:04 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Acknowledgement sent to Yves-Alexis Perez <corsac@debian.org>:
Extra info received and forwarded to list. Copy sent to Debian Install System Team <debian-boot@lists.debian.org>. (Sun, 13 Oct 2013 19:15:04 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #80 received at 718855@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox):

From: Yves-Alexis Perez <corsac@debian.org>
To: Joey Hess <joeyh@debian.org>
Cc: Emilio Pozuelo Monfort <pochu@debian.org>, 718855@bugs.debian.org, pkg-xfce-devel@lists.alioth.debian.org, pkg-gnome-maintainers@lists.alioth.debian.org
Subject: Re: [Pkg-xfce-devel] network-manager-gnome -> full gnome recommends chain
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2013 21:10:08 +0200
[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]
On Thu, 2013-10-10 at 11:32 -0400, Joey Hess wrote:
> Yves-Alexis Perez wrote:
> > Or tasksel could stop installing recommends, like it was done before,
> > and people involved in the various tasks can handle the list explicitly.
> 
> This thread seems to have gone off on a tangent after the correct fix
> has already been indentified and committed by Emilio.
> 
Well, maybe that's because people concerned by this disagree with the
“correct” fix. Unless I'm mistaken, that still brings
gnome-control-center on both first Xfce/LXDE discs and installations. 

That's not really acceptable, especially if the only other solution is
for us to drop network-manager-gnome from the task.

Regards,
-- 
Yves-Alexis
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