Debian Bug report logs - #702623
Maxima in sage is built against ecl

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Package: maxima; Maintainer for maxima is Camm Maguire <camm@debian.org>; Source for maxima is src:maxima.

Reported by: Julien Puydt <julien.puydt@laposte.net>

Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2013 09:18:02 UTC

Severity: normal

Found in version maxima/5.29.1-1

Done: Camm Maguire <camm@maguirefamily.org>

Bug is archived. No further changes may be made.

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Report forwarded to debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org, Camm Maguire <camm@debian.org>:
Bug#702623; Package maxima. (Sat, 09 Mar 2013 09:18:04 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Acknowledgement sent to Julien Puydt <julien.puydt@laposte.net>:
New Bug report received and forwarded. Copy sent to Camm Maguire <camm@debian.org>. (Sat, 09 Mar 2013 09:18:04 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #5 received at submit@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox):

From: Julien Puydt <julien.puydt@laposte.net>
To: submit@bugs.debian.org, debian-science@lists.debian.org
Subject: Maxima in sage is built against ecl
Date: Sat, 09 Mar 2013 10:14:39 +0100
Package: maxima
Version: 5.29.1-1

The maxima used in sage is built with ecl, while the sage in debian 
isn't. That will of course be a problem to package sage ; a very simple 
fix would be to just compile maxima with ecl in debian.

But of course, simple doesn't mean correct : I saw #661803 where someone 
asks for an sbcl-built maxima, so the situation is going to be a pain if 
each and everyone wants maxima built against some variant of common lisp...

I don't know how to handle the situation gracefully, so I open this bug 
CCing debian-science to discuss the matter.

Thanks,

Snark on #debian-science



Information forwarded to debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org, Camm Maguire <camm@debian.org>:
Bug#702623; Package maxima. (Sat, 09 Mar 2013 10:12:03 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Acknowledgement sent to Sylvestre Ledru <sylvestre@debian.org>:
Extra info received and forwarded to list. Copy sent to Camm Maguire <camm@debian.org>. (Sat, 09 Mar 2013 10:12:03 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #10 received at 702623@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox):

From: Sylvestre Ledru <sylvestre@debian.org>
To: debian-science@lists.debian.org, 702623@bugs.debian.org
Subject: Re: Maxima in sage is built against ecl
Date: Sat, 09 Mar 2013 11:09:30 +0100
On 09/03/2013 10:14, Julien Puydt wrote:
> Package: maxima
> Version: 5.29.1-1
> 
> The maxima used in sage is built with ecl, while the sage in debian
> isn't. That will of course be a problem to package sage ; a very simple
> fix would be to just compile maxima with ecl in debian.
> 
> But of course, simple doesn't mean correct : I saw #661803 where someone
> asks for an sbcl-built maxima, so the situation is going to be a pain if
> each and everyone wants maxima built against some variant of common lisp...
> 
> I don't know how to handle the situation gracefully, so I open this bug
> CCing debian-science to discuss the matter.
Usually, during the package creation workflow, you rebuild the
application against the various implementation and you provide:
maxima-implementationX
maxima-implementationY
maxima-implementationZ

It takes a X time more time to build and it is harder to maintain: paths
have to be different or packages have to conflict one against the other
(causing issues for the packages depending on this).
(example: hdf5)

My advice: see if sage can work without this.

Sylvestre




Information forwarded to debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org, Camm Maguire <camm@debian.org>:
Bug#702623; Package maxima. (Sun, 10 Mar 2013 08:21:03 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Acknowledgement sent to Julien Puydt <julien.puydt@laposte.net>:
Extra info received and forwarded to list. Copy sent to Camm Maguire <camm@debian.org>. (Sun, 10 Mar 2013 08:21:03 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #15 received at 702623@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox):

From: Julien Puydt <julien.puydt@laposte.net>
To: debian-science@lists.debian.org, 702623@bugs.debian.org
Subject: Re: Maxima in sage is built against ecl
Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2013 09:10:06 +0100
Le 09/03/2013 11:09, Sylvestre Ledru a écrit :
> On 09/03/2013 10:14, Julien Puydt wrote:
>> Package: maxima
>> Version: 5.29.1-1
>>
>> The maxima used in sage is built with ecl, while the sage in debian
>> isn't. That will of course be a problem to package sage ; a very simple
>> fix would be to just compile maxima with ecl in debian.
>>
>> But of course, simple doesn't mean correct : I saw #661803 where someone
>> asks for an sbcl-built maxima, so the situation is going to be a pain if
>> each and everyone wants maxima built against some variant of common lisp...
>>
>> I don't know how to handle the situation gracefully, so I open this bug
>> CCing debian-science to discuss the matter.
> Usually, during the package creation workflow, you rebuild the
> application against the various implementation and you provide:
> maxima-implementationX
> maxima-implementationY
> maxima-implementationZ
>
> It takes a X time more time to build and it is harder to maintain: paths
> have to be different or packages have to conflict one against the other
> (causing issues for the packages depending on this).
> (example: hdf5)

More time to build, bigger size in the repository, and a general pain, I 
know ; that's why it has to be discussed and good choices have to be made.

> My advice: see if sage can work without this.

Here is how I see things looking at the code from high above :
(1) sage/libs/ecl.pyx has some code to convert between ecl and sage 
basic types, initialize some things, control the gc...
(2) sage/interfaces/maxima_lib.py makes the interface between sage and 
maxima, and heavily uses ecl.

In fact, the impression I have is that sage isn't using ecl through 
maxima (which would make it quite easy to hide something else behind 
maxima), but is using maxima through ecl. That means getting ecl out of 
sage is basically a fork...

How easy is it to make the same maxima to run on several common-lisps?

Snark on #debian-science



Information forwarded to debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org, Camm Maguire <camm@debian.org>:
Bug#702623; Package maxima. (Sun, 10 Mar 2013 11:00:03 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Acknowledgement sent to Sylvestre Ledru <sylvestre@debian.org>:
Extra info received and forwarded to list. Copy sent to Camm Maguire <camm@debian.org>. (Sun, 10 Mar 2013 11:00:03 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #20 received at 702623@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox):

From: Sylvestre Ledru <sylvestre@debian.org>
To: debian-science@lists.debian.org
Cc: 702623@bugs.debian.org
Subject: Re: Maxima in sage is built against ecl
Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2013 11:57:59 +0100
On 10/03/2013 09:10, Julien Puydt wrote:
> Le 09/03/2013 11:09, Sylvestre Ledru a écrit :
>> On 09/03/2013 10:14, Julien Puydt wrote:
>>> Package: maxima
>>> Version: 5.29.1-1
>>>
>>> The maxima used in sage is built with ecl, while the sage in debian
>>> isn't. That will of course be a problem to package sage ; a very simple
>>> fix would be to just compile maxima with ecl in debian.
>>>
>>> But of course, simple doesn't mean correct : I saw #661803 where someone
>>> asks for an sbcl-built maxima, so the situation is going to be a pain if
>>> each and everyone wants maxima built against some variant of common
>>> lisp...
>>>
>>> I don't know how to handle the situation gracefully, so I open this bug
>>> CCing debian-science to discuss the matter.
>> Usually, during the package creation workflow, you rebuild the
>> application against the various implementation and you provide:
>> maxima-implementationX
>> maxima-implementationY
>> maxima-implementationZ
>>
>> It takes a X time more time to build and it is harder to maintain: paths
>> have to be different or packages have to conflict one against the other
>> (causing issues for the packages depending on this).
>> (example: hdf5)
> 
> More time to build, bigger size in the repository
I don't think these are real issues.

>  and a general pain,
This one is :p

Sylvestre




Information forwarded to debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org, Camm Maguire <camm@debian.org>:
Bug#702623; Package maxima. (Tue, 12 Mar 2013 12:39:03 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Acknowledgement sent to Julien Puydt <julien.puydt@laposte.net>:
Extra info received and forwarded to list. Copy sent to Camm Maguire <camm@debian.org>. (Tue, 12 Mar 2013 12:39:03 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #25 received at 702623@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox):

From: Julien Puydt <julien.puydt@laposte.net>
Cc: debian-science@lists.debian.org, 702623@bugs.debian.org
Subject: Re: Maxima in sage is built against ecl
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 13:34:13 +0100
Le 10/03/2013 09:10, Julien Puydt a écrit :
> How easy is it to make the same maxima to run on several common-lisps?

Considering:
jpuydt@newton:~$ dpkg -L maxima |grep lib
/usr/lib
/usr/lib/maxima
/usr/lib/maxima/5.29.1
/usr/lib/maxima/5.29.1/binary-gcl
/usr/lib/maxima/5.29.1/binary-gcl/maxima
/usr/lib/maxima/5.29.1/mgnuplot

I would say that it looks like maxima makes it pretty easy to support 
several common lisp backends.

Now, that doesn't make everything perfect at once, since the 
/usr/bin/maxima shell script can't magically know which variant we want, 
but if there's a "maxima-ecl" available, that would definitely make 
things manageable for the sage packaging effort.

What do the maxima maintainers think?

Snark



Reply sent to Camm Maguire <camm@maguirefamily.org>:
You have taken responsibility. (Tue, 23 Apr 2013 15:15:12 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Notification sent to Julien Puydt <julien.puydt@laposte.net>:
Bug acknowledged by developer. (Tue, 23 Apr 2013 15:15:12 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #30 received at 702623-done@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox):

From: Camm Maguire <camm@maguirefamily.org>
To: 702623-done@bugs.debian.org
Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 11:11:21 -0400
From: Camm Maguire <camm@maguirefamily.org>
To: 702623-done@bugs.debian.org
Subject: Re: Bug#702623: Maxima in sage is built against ecl
Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 11:11:21 -0400
Message-ID: <87vc7dp9ie.fsf@maguirefamily.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Greetings, and thank you so much for your report!

As the thread has uncovered, going down this route leads to enormous
system complexity and a maintenance nightmare.  Furthermore, it is
unclear why sage should care at all how maxima was built as long as it
passes its tests.  Hopefully, sage treats maxima as a modular externally
provided program.  If not, I'm reasonably confident I can make a sage
package for Debian which does so, if there is interest.  The
self-contained module approach is the only sane way to go about this in
my opinion.
-- 
Camm Maguire			     		    camm@maguirefamily.org
==========================================================================
"The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens."  --  Baha'u'llah



Information forwarded to debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org, Camm Maguire <camm@debian.org>:
Bug#702623; Package maxima. (Wed, 24 Apr 2013 19:18:12 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Acknowledgement sent to Julien Puydt <julien.puydt@laposte.net>:
Extra info received and forwarded to list. Copy sent to Camm Maguire <camm@debian.org>. (Wed, 24 Apr 2013 19:18:12 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #35 received at 702623@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox):

From: Julien Puydt <julien.puydt@laposte.net>
To: 702623@bugs.debian.org
Subject: Re: Bug#702623 closed by Camm Maguire <camm@maguirefamily.org> ()
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2013 21:14:03 +0200
On Tue, 23 Apr 2013 15:15:12 +0000
owner@bugs.debian.org (Debian Bug Tracking System) wrote:

> This is an automatic notification regarding your Bug report
> which was filed against the maxima package:
> 
> #702623: Maxima in sage is built against ecl
> 
> It has been closed by Camm Maguire <camm@maguirefamily.org>.
> 
> Their explanation is attached below along with your original report.
> If this explanation is unsatisfactory and you have not received a
> better one in a separate message then please contact Camm Maguire <camm@maguirefamily.org> by
> replying to this email.

Your explanation isn't correct : sage uses maxima, and uses ecl -- and it moves things from one to the other. So you really need maxima to know about ecl for this to work. I stand by my report!

Snark on #debian-science



Information forwarded to debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org, Camm Maguire <camm@debian.org>:
Bug#702623; Package maxima. (Thu, 25 Apr 2013 19:12:04 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Acknowledgement sent to Camm Maguire <camm@maguirefamily.org>:
Extra info received and forwarded to list. Copy sent to Camm Maguire <camm@debian.org>.

Your message did not contain a Subject field. They are recommended and useful because the title of a $gBug is determined using this field. Please remember to include a Subject field in your messages in future.

(Thu, 25 Apr 2013 19:12:04 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.


Message #40 received at 702623@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox):

From: Camm Maguire <camm@maguirefamily.org>
To: 702623@bugs.debian.org, julien.puydt@laposte.net
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2013 15:09:21 -0400
From: Camm Maguire <camm@maguirefamily.org>
To: Julien Puydt <julien.puydt@laposte.net>
Cc: 702623@bugs.debian.org
Subject: Re: Bug#702623: closed by Camm Maguire <camm@maguirefamily.org> ()
References: <E1UUesL-0007l1-Nn@localhost.m.enhanced.com>
	<513AFD7F.70006@laposte.net>
	<handler.702623.D702623.13667299036557.notifdone@bugs.debian.org>
	<20130424211403.bcdb4fce86ed5a4eada2db6f@laposte.net>
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2013 15:09:21 -0400
In-Reply-To: <20130424211403.bcdb4fce86ed5a4eada2db6f@laposte.net> (Julien
	Puydt's message of "Wed, 24 Apr 2013 21:14:03 +0200")
Message-ID: <87a9omjula.fsf@maguirefamily.org>
User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.4 (gnu/linux)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Greetings, and thanks!

Julien Puydt <julien.puydt@laposte.net> writes:

> On Tue, 23 Apr 2013 15:15:12 +0000
> owner@bugs.debian.org (Debian Bug Tracking System) wrote:
>
>> This is an automatic notification regarding your Bug report
>> which was filed against the maxima package:
>> 
>> #702623: Maxima in sage is built against ecl
>> 
>> It has been closed by Camm Maguire <camm@maguirefamily.org>.
>> 
>> Their explanation is attached below along with your original report.
>> If this explanation is unsatisfactory and you have not received a
>> better one in a separate message then please contact Camm Maguire <camm@maguirefamily.org> by
>> replying to this email.
>
> Your explanation isn't correct : sage uses maxima, and uses ecl -- and it moves things from one to the other. So you really need maxima to know about ecl for this to work. I stand by my report!
>

Can you be a bit more specific about 'moving things from one to the
other', maybe with an example?

Take care,

> Snark on #debian-science
>
>
>
>

-- 
Camm Maguire			     		    camm@maguirefamily.org
==========================================================================
"The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens."  --  Baha'u'llah



Bug archived. Request was from Debbugs Internal Request <owner@bugs.debian.org> to internal_control@bugs.debian.org. (Fri, 24 May 2013 07:26:57 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

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