Debian Bug report logs - #652631
www.debian.org: please clarify the distinction between 'events@d.o' and 'debian-events-*@lists.d.o'

Package: www.debian.org; Maintainer for www.debian.org is Debian WWW Team <debian-www@lists.debian.org>;

Reported by: Luca Capello <luca@pca.it>

Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 12:51:03 UTC

Severity: important

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Report forwarded to debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org, luca@pca.it, debian-publicity@lists.debian.org, debian-events-eu@lists.debian.org, events@debian.org, Debian WWW Team <debian-www@lists.debian.org>:
Bug#652631; Package www.debian.org. (Mon, 19 Dec 2011 12:51:06 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Acknowledgement sent to Luca Capello <luca@pca.it>:
New Bug report received and forwarded. Copy sent to luca@pca.it, debian-publicity@lists.debian.org, debian-events-eu@lists.debian.org, events@debian.org, Debian WWW Team <debian-www@lists.debian.org>. (Mon, 19 Dec 2011 12:51:09 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #5 received at submit@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox):

From: Luca Capello <luca@pca.it>
To: Debian Bug Tracking System <submit@bugs.debian.org>
Subject: www.debian.org: please clarify the distinction between 'events@d.o' and 'debian-events-*@lists.d.o'
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 13:41:26 +0100
[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]
Package: www.debian.org
Severity: important
User: events@debian.org
Usertags: events-announce

Hi there!

The discussion started at [1].  Cc: debian-publicity@, which is where
the Events team (Cc:ed) discussion should he held.  Feel free to
continue there, but please keep the BTS in the loop.

[1] <http://lists.debian.org/20111218120322.GB2354@anhrefn.saar.de>

I decided to report this as a bug because the result of this discussion
should end up in the Events "admin" page [2], which, as a side note,
does not even show the debian-events-*@ mailing lists.

[2] <http://www.debian.org/events/admin>

Axel, I re-ordered your text to reply in a single place to all of you.

On Sun, 18 Dec 2011 15:50:05 +0100, Axel Beckert wrote:
> Bernd Zeimetz wrote:
>> On 12/18/2011 01:03 PM, Arne Wichmann wrote:
>> > A late reply - I am a bit delayed for non-urgent tasks at the moment.

Thank you for the follow-up.  I would have preferred a reply to my
original email you referred to [6], but this is my maniacal side ;-)

>> > begin  quotation  from Luca Capello (in <877h2jm9bv.fsf@gismo.pca.it>):
>> >> As a final side note: as announced in the past, feel free to contact the
>> >> Debian Events team for any question like this one.  While we monitor the
>> >> debian-events-*@ mailing lists, in no way these should be the central
>> >> point for anything event-related:

The quotation is from [3], but it could also be from [4] or [5].

[3] <http://lists.debian.org/877h2jm9bv.fsf@gismo.pca.it>
[4] <http://lists.debian.org/87ehwrnos8.fsf@gismo.pca.it>
[5] <http://lists.debian.org/87vcq3hxep.fsf@gismo.pca.it>

>> >>   <http://lists.debian.org/87tyg2g6ed.fsf@gismo.pca.it>
>
> Gives a 404 for me. Nevertheless I can imagine what's in there.

It works here, the (current) non-MID link is [6].

[6] <http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2011/02/msg00006.html>

>> > I do not like the way things are handled in that mail. I do not feel that
>> > centralization is a good idea for event handling, but this is what is being
>> > done: events@debian.org is an interface in which I as non-DD can not
>> > participate in. http://wiki.debian.org/CategoryEvents is global and very
>> > unsorted and not very usable to alert me to what is happening.

Were your feelings also influenced but how the CeBIT 2012 booth is being
organized [7]?  This was the first time the Events team was contacted by
the organizers of an event, in a non-English language, so I am for any
improvements in the workflow I followed [4].

[7] <http://lists.debian.org/874nx0n9zh.fsf@gismo.pca.it>

>> > debian-events-eu@lists.debian.org is low-traffic and not moderated - I can
>> > follow what is happening there, and take part without relying on a
>> > centralized team. Any mechanism which replaces it should at least have
>> > these qualities. 
>> 
>> Strong ack. Organizing events should not be happening behind the scenes.
>
> Seconded.

And what Axel wrote before:

> I still disagree. IMHO that's _exactly_ what these lists should be and
> are. Events are local stuff and they should be handled mostly locally,
> not globally.
>
> I think it's a good idea to have central place to contact in case
> local event teams need physical resources or resources outside the
> wiki and the mailing lists, but nevertheless the organization and
> announcements should primarily be local.

I structured my reply on points, it should be easier to reply.

a) there is no Events cabal ;-)

b) at least for those who have access to Debian machines nothing is
   happening behind the scene, given that 'events@d.o' is archived on
   master [8].

[8] <http://anonscm.debian.org/viewvc/webwml/webwml/english/events/README?revision=1.8&view=markup>

c) I do not consider *any* wiki as official documentation, which means
   that the wikipage Arne referred to [9] should not be used as such.

[9] <http://wiki.debian.org/CategoryEvents>

d) I think there is a misunderstanding of what I wrote at [6], here the
   extract of my words:

--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
Submitting an event
===================

This is the easiest part: whenever you know of any event Debian is
present, simply send an email in English to <events@debian.org> [15].
We will then do all the necessary steps to find someone willing to
participate/coordinate the Debian presence and announce the event to the
appropriate debian-events-* mailing lists [16][17][18][19], if not
already done.
--8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---

   As far as I read the text above, the Events team *does* not organize
   an event, instead it will (or it should or, if you prefer, I think it
   should):

   1. receive notice of an event Debian will take part in.
   2. if not already present, find the main responsible for that event
      (we request that for the entry in the event page [10][11]).
   3. add the event to the event page [11].
   4. if not already done, announce the event to the (language/region-
      specific) debian-events-*@ mailing list, so the *official* event
      page at [11] can be used.

[10] <http://anonscm.debian.org/viewvc/webwml/webwml/english/events/event.form?revision=1.10&view=markup>
[11] <http://www.debian.org/events>

   I still fail to see why/how you think that the Events team wants to
   centralize how events are managed, while we try to publicize as
   much/best as possible the highest number of events *through* official
   channels.

   At DebConf11, during the Events BoF [12] this topic was discussed
   again and I thought what I summarized in the report [13] was the
   consensus drawn from the discussion, let me quote my words:

--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
First, for the mailing list, the idea would be to still use the
already-established debian-events-$SOMETHING [13] mailing list for
coordination, with a "new" mailing list for announcement only (both
minor and major events).  This should be a restricted-posting mailing
list (probably Events and Press membership only): its aim is to provide
email notifications whenever a new event is added to the website.  A
parallel approach would be to duplicate the announcements on Planet
Debian, but these points must be coordinated with the Publicity team.
--8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---

[12] <http://penta.debconf.org/dc11_schedule/events/731.en.html>
[13] <http://lists.debian.org/87fwlbctds.fsf@gismo.pca.it>

   The Events team has not started yet to use debian-news@ as the
   "general" mailing list for *all* announcements [14], but from the
   extract above it seems clear to me that in case Debian will gain
   other *official* channels, we will use them (e.g. blog.d.o).

[14] <http://bugs.debian.org/643647>

> And I'm still wondering if a German-speaking debian-events-de@l.d.o
> list (like the Dutch speaking debian-events-nl@l.d.o) wouldn't be a
> good idea either.

From an announcement POV, yet another mailing list would be a pain,
because this means that the Events team, *if not notified*, will miss
more events.  Just to provide an example: Debian will be present at the
forthcoming 28C3 [15], but no one told the Events team about that,
except Paul Wise last Saturday via IRC [16] (FYI he is acting as a proxy
for us since a while).

[15] <http://wiki.debian.org/DebianEventsDe/2011/28C3>
[16] <irc://irc.oftc.net/debian-events>

From a coordination POV, given that as Arne wrote debian-events-eu@ is
low-traffic, I still think too much fragmentation is worthless and it
will keep away contributors.  Again, just to provide an example: I do
not speak German, but I was happy to help for the Debian booth at the
Chemnitzer Linux-Tage 2011 [16].  This because everything was done
through debian-events-eu@ and not a localized mailing list.

[16] <http://lists.debian.org/87bp0rxlwq.fsf@gismo.pca.it>

> (Cc to events@d.o, so that they are aware of this discussion in case
> they really don't follow debian-events-eu@l.d.o closely enough.)

Thank you Axel, the *latter* is the problem: ATM the Events team has to
monitor various channels (IRC, mailing lists and planets, even
non-Debian [17]) to be aware of events, while as I see it it should be
the other way around.

[17] <http://lists.debconf.org/lurker/message/20111210.235459.a8d46a5b.en.html>

Thx, bye,
Gismo / Luca

-- System Information:
Debian Release: wheezy/sid
  APT prefers unstable
  APT policy: (990, 'unstable'), (1, 'experimental')
Architecture: amd64 (x86_64)

Kernel: Linux 3.1.0-1-amd64 (SMP w/2 CPU cores)
Locale: LANG=en_US.UTF-8, LC_CTYPE=en_US.UTF-8 (charmap=UTF-8)
Shell: /bin/sh linked to /bin/dash
[Message part 2 (application/pgp-signature, inline)]

Information forwarded to debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org, Debian WWW Team <debian-www@lists.debian.org>:
Bug#652631; Package www.debian.org. (Sun, 25 Dec 2011 22:21:07 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Acknowledgement sent to Arne Wichmann <aw@anhrefn.saar.de>:
Extra info received and forwarded to list. Copy sent to Debian WWW Team <debian-www@lists.debian.org>. (Sun, 25 Dec 2011 22:21:07 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #10 received at 652631@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox):

From: Arne Wichmann <aw@anhrefn.saar.de>
To: Luca Capello <luca@pca.it>, 652631@bugs.debian.org
Cc: debian-events-eu@lists.debian.org, events@debian.org
Subject: Re: Bug#652631: www.debian.org: please clarify the distinction between 'events@d.o' and 'debian-events-*@lists.d.o'
Date: Sun, 25 Dec 2011 23:11:30 +0100
[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]
I kept debian-events-eu and events in the receipients list - I feel that
the discussion is relevant there.

I will trim the reference mail heavily.

begin  quotation  from Luca Capello (in <87vcpchgy1.fsf_-_@gismo.pca.it>):
> On Sun, 18 Dec 2011 15:50:05 +0100, Axel Beckert wrote:
> > Bernd Zeimetz wrote:
> >> On 12/18/2011 01:03 PM, Arne Wichmann wrote:
> >> > begin  quotation  from Luca Capello (in <877h2jm9bv.fsf@gismo.pca.it>):

> >> > I do not like the way things are handled in that mail. I do not feel that
> >> > centralization is a good idea for event handling, but this is what is being
> >> > done: events@debian.org is an interface in which I as non-DD can not
> >> > participate in. http://wiki.debian.org/CategoryEvents is global and very
> >> > unsorted and not very usable to alert me to what is happening.
> 
> Were your feelings also influenced but how the CeBIT 2012 booth is being
> organized [7]?  This was the first time the Events team was contacted by
> the organizers of an event, in a non-English language, so I am for any
> improvements in the workflow I followed [4].
> 
> [7] <http://lists.debian.org/874nx0n9zh.fsf@gismo.pca.it>

No, as I have decided not to paricipate in organizing this (no time, too
far away, no crash space near the event) I did not devote too much
attention. 

[...]
> I structured my reply on points, it should be easier to reply.
> 
> a) there is no Events cabal ;-)
> 
> b) at least for those who have access to Debian machines nothing is
>    happening behind the scene, given that 'events@d.o' is archived on
>    master [8].

> [8] <http://anonscm.debian.org/viewvc/webwml/webwml/english/events/README?revision=1.8&view=markup>

I have not. Am I the only one to which this applies?

> c) I do not consider *any* wiki as official documentation, which means
>    that the wikipage Arne referred to [9] should not be used as such.
> 
> [9] <http://wiki.debian.org/CategoryEvents>

On the other hand, a wiki page is a good means to organise events.

> d) I think there is a misunderstanding of what I wrote at [6], here the
>    extract of my words:
> 
> --8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
> Submitting an event
> ===================
> 
> This is the easiest part: whenever you know of any event Debian is
> present, simply send an email in English to <events@debian.org> [15].
> We will then do all the necessary steps to find someone willing to
> participate/coordinate the Debian presence and announce the event to the
> appropriate debian-events-* mailing lists [16][17][18][19], if not
> already done.
> --8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---
> 
>    As far as I read the text above, the Events team *does* not organize
>    an event, instead it will (or it should or, if you prefer, I think it
>    should):
> 
>    1. receive notice of an event Debian will take part in.
>    2. if not already present, find the main responsible for that event
>       (we request that for the entry in the event page [10][11]).
>    3. add the event to the event page [11].
>    4. if not already done, announce the event to the (language/region-
>       specific) debian-events-*@ mailing list, so the *official* event
>       page at [11] can be used.
> 
> [10] <http://anonscm.debian.org/viewvc/webwml/webwml/english/events/event.form?revision=1.10&view=markup>
> [11] <http://www.debian.org/events>
> 
>    I still fail to see why/how you think that the Events team wants to
>    centralize how events are managed, while we try to publicize as
>    much/best as possible the highest number of events *through* official
>    channels.
> 
>    At DebConf11, during the Events BoF [12] this topic was discussed
>    again and I thought what I summarized in the report [13] was the
>    consensus drawn from the discussion, let me quote my words:

My argument is: event coordination should be possible without a central
instance. At the moment the workflow is: mail the event to
debian-events-$locale (using suitable locale), the organizer mails that he
is doing so to the same mailing list and typically creates a wiki page for
further organizing. There is no human single point of failure in that
workflow. Moreover the workflow works for everyone, not only DDs.

I am not against informing events@d.o, though.

> --8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
> First, for the mailing list, the idea would be to still use the
> already-established debian-events-$SOMETHING [13] mailing list for
> coordination, with a "new" mailing list for announcement only (both
> minor and major events).  This should be a restricted-posting mailing
> list (probably Events and Press membership only): its aim is to provide
> email notifications whenever a new event is added to the website.  A
> parallel approach would be to duplicate the announcements on Planet
> Debian, but these points must be coordinated with the Publicity team.
> --8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---
> 
> [12] <http://penta.debconf.org/dc11_schedule/events/731.en.html>
> [13] <http://lists.debian.org/87fwlbctds.fsf@gismo.pca.it>
> 
>    The Events team has not started yet to use debian-news@ as the
>    "general" mailing list for *all* announcements [14], but from the
>    extract above it seems clear to me that in case Debian will gain
>    other *official* channels, we will use them (e.g. blog.d.o).
> 
> [14] <http://bugs.debian.org/643647>
> 
> > And I'm still wondering if a German-speaking debian-events-de@l.d.o
> > list (like the Dutch speaking debian-events-nl@l.d.o) wouldn't be a
> > good idea either.
> 
> From an announcement POV, yet another mailing list would be a pain,
> because this means that the Events team, *if not notified*, will miss
> more events.  Just to provide an example: Debian will be present at the
> forthcoming 28C3 [15], but no one told the Events team about that,
> except Paul Wise last Saturday via IRC [16] (FYI he is acting as a proxy
> for us since a while).

CCC organisation is as chaotic as the event (it even has chaos in its
name). I do not feel that it is a good example for anything.

> [15] <http://wiki.debian.org/DebianEventsDe/2011/28C3>
> [16] <irc://irc.oftc.net/debian-events>
> 
> From a coordination POV, given that as Arne wrote debian-events-eu@ is
> low-traffic, I still think too much fragmentation is worthless and it
> will keep away contributors.  Again, just to provide an example: I do
> not speak German, but I was happy to help for the Debian booth at the
> Chemnitzer Linux-Tage 2011 [16].  This because everything was done
> through debian-events-eu@ and not a localized mailing list.

The other side of the argument is that english lists for german events are
an unnecessary communication barrier. Not that I feel that this is a
decisive argument.

> [16] <http://lists.debian.org/87bp0rxlwq.fsf@gismo.pca.it>
> 
> > (Cc to events@d.o, so that they are aware of this discussion in case
> > they really don't follow debian-events-eu@l.d.o closely enough.)
> 
> Thank you Axel, the *latter* is the problem: ATM the Events team has to
> monitor various channels (IRC, mailing lists and planets, even
> non-Debian [17]) to be aware of events, while as I see it it should be
> the other way around.
> 
> [17] <http://lists.debconf.org/lurker/message/20111210.235459.a8d46a5b.en.html>

On the other hand, I feel that the events team should read debian-events-*
(at least collectively - not necessarily everyone should read every list).

In the case of non-english lists a proxy might be used.

So, the main question for me is, how should my future workflow look like
when announcing and/or organizing an event.

cu

AW
-- 
[...] If you don't want to be restricted, don't agree to it. If you are
coerced, comply as much as you must to protect yourself, just don't support
it. Noone can free you but yourself. (crag, on Debian Planet)
Arne Wichmann (aw@linux.de)
[signature.asc (application/pgp-signature, inline)]

Information forwarded to debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org, Debian WWW Team <debian-www@lists.debian.org>:
Bug#652631; Package www.debian.org. (Mon, 26 Dec 2011 00:33:07 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Acknowledgement sent to Bernd Zeimetz <bzed@debian.org>:
Extra info received and forwarded to list. Copy sent to Debian WWW Team <debian-www@lists.debian.org>. (Mon, 26 Dec 2011 00:33:07 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #15 received at 652631@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox):

From: Bernd Zeimetz <bzed@debian.org>
To: debian-events-eu@lists.debian.org, 652631@bugs.debian.org, events@debian.org, Luca Capello <luca@pca.it>
Subject: Re: Bug#652631: www.debian.org: please clarify the distinction between 'events@d.o' and 'debian-events-*@lists.d.o'
Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2011 01:30:10 +0100
On 12/25/2011 11:11 PM, Arne Wichmann wrote:
[...]
>> b) at least for those who have access to Debian machines nothing is
>>    happening behind the scene, given that 'events@d.o' is archived on
>>    master [8].
> 
>> [8] <http://anonscm.debian.org/viewvc/webwml/webwml/english/events/README?revision=1.8&view=markup>
> 
> I have not. Am I the only one to which this applies?

No. we often have people organizing stuff which are not DDs.


>> c) I do not consider *any* wiki as official documentation, which means
>>    that the wikipage Arne referred to [9] should not be used as such.
>>
>> [9] <http://wiki.debian.org/CategoryEvents>
> 
> On the other hand, a wiki page is a good means to organise events.

And it worked very well for a lot of events.
I doubt there is a better way to organize booth staffing and
who-brings-what-and-when.



>> d) I think there is a misunderstanding of what I wrote at [6], here the
>>    extract of my words:
>>
>> --8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
>> Submitting an event
>> ===================
>>
>> This is the easiest part: whenever you know of any event Debian is
>> present, simply send an email in English to <events@debian.org> [15].
>> We will then do all the necessary steps to find someone willing to
>> participate/coordinate the Debian presence and announce the event to the
>> appropriate debian-events-* mailing lists [16][17][18][19], if not
>> already done.
>> --8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---
>>
>>    As far as I read the text above, the Events team *does* not organize
>>    an event, instead it will (or it should or, if you prefer, I think it
>>    should):
>>
>>    1. receive notice of an event Debian will take part in.
>>    2. if not already present, find the main responsible for that event
>>       (we request that for the entry in the event page [10][11]).
>>    3. add the event to the event page [11].
>>    4. if not already done, announce the event to the (language/region-
>>       specific) debian-events-*@ mailing list, so the *official* event
>>       page at [11] can be used.
>>
>> [10] <http://anonscm.debian.org/viewvc/webwml/webwml/english/events/event.form?revision=1.10&view=markup>
>> [11] <http://www.debian.org/events>
>>
>>    I still fail to see why/how you think that the Events team wants to
>>    centralize how events are managed, while we try to publicize as
>>    much/best as possible the highest number of events *through* official
>>    channels.
>>
>>    At DebConf11, during the Events BoF [12] this topic was discussed
>>    again and I thought what I summarized in the report [13] was the
>>    consensus drawn from the discussion, let me quote my words:
> 
> My argument is: event coordination should be possible without a central
> instance. 

ACK ACK ACK!!!!!

> At the moment the workflow is: mail the event to
> debian-events-$locale (using suitable locale), the organizer mails that he
> is doing so to the same mailing list and typically creates a wiki page for
> further organizing. There is no human single point of failure in that
> workflow. Moreover the workflow works for everyone, not only DDs.
> 
> I am not against informing events@d.o, though.
> 
>> --8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
>> First, for the mailing list, the idea would be to still use the
>> already-established debian-events-$SOMETHING [13] mailing list for
>> coordination, with a "new" mailing list for announcement only (both
>> minor and major events).  This should be a restricted-posting mailing
>> list (probably Events and Press membership only): its aim is to provide
>> email notifications whenever a new event is added to the website.  A
>> parallel approach would be to duplicate the announcements on Planet
>> Debian, but these points must be coordinated with the Publicity team.
>> --8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---
>>
>> [12] <http://penta.debconf.org/dc11_schedule/events/731.en.html>
>> [13] <http://lists.debian.org/87fwlbctds.fsf@gismo.pca.it>
>>
>>    The Events team has not started yet to use debian-news@ as the
>>    "general" mailing list for *all* announcements [14], but from the
>>    extract above it seems clear to me that in case Debian will gain
>>    other *official* channels, we will use them (e.g. blog.d.o).
>>
>> [14] <http://bugs.debian.org/643647>
>>
>>> And I'm still wondering if a German-speaking debian-events-de@l.d.o
>>> list (like the Dutch speaking debian-events-nl@l.d.o) wouldn't be a
>>> good idea either.
>>
>> From an announcement POV, yet another mailing list would be a pain,
>> because this means that the Events team, *if not notified*, will miss
>> more events.  Just to provide an example: Debian will be present at the
>> forthcoming 28C3 [15], but no one told the Events team about that,
>> except Paul Wise last Saturday via IRC [16] (FYI he is acting as a proxy
>> for us since a while).
> 
> CCC organisation is as chaotic as the event (it even has chaos in its
> name). I do not feel that it is a good example for anything.


May be the events team should - instead of founding itself - talk to those
people who are known to provide merch and booth material if they want to join
and what they can provide?


>> [15] <http://wiki.debian.org/DebianEventsDe/2011/28C3>
>> [16] <irc://irc.oftc.net/debian-events>
>>
>> From a coordination POV, given that as Arne wrote debian-events-eu@ is
>> low-traffic, I still think too much fragmentation is worthless and it
>> will keep away contributors.  Again, just to provide an example: I do
>> not speak German, but I was happy to help for the Debian booth at the
>> Chemnitzer Linux-Tage 2011 [16].  This because everything was done
>> through debian-events-eu@ and not a localized mailing list.
> 
> The other side of the argument is that english lists for german events are
> an unnecessary communication barrier. Not that I feel that this is a
> decisive argument.

Should not be such an issue imho. In the worst case people could post German to
the -eu list, somebod wil lhelp out and translate.


>> [16] <http://lists.debian.org/87bp0rxlwq.fsf@gismo.pca.it>
>>
>>> (Cc to events@d.o, so that they are aware of this discussion in case
>>> they really don't follow debian-events-eu@l.d.o closely enough.)
>>
>> Thank you Axel, the *latter* is the problem: ATM the Events team has to
>> monitor various channels (IRC, mailing lists and planets, even
>> non-Debian [17]) to be aware of events, while as I see it it should be
>> the other way around.
>>
>> [17] <http://lists.debconf.org/lurker/message/20111210.235459.a8d46a5b.en.html>
> 
> On the other hand, I feel that the events team should read debian-events-*
> (at least collectively - not necessarily everyone should read every list).

Even better: the even team should consist of people from each d-events-$(locale)
list (probably those who are organizing a lot of stuff).


> In the case of non-english lists a proxy might be used.
> 
> So, the main question for me is, how should my future workflow look like
> when announcing and/or organizing an event.

-- 
 Bernd Zeimetz                            Debian GNU/Linux Developer
 http://bzed.de                                http://www.debian.org
 GPG Fingerprint: ECA1 E3F2 8E11 2432 D485  DD95 EB36 171A 6FF9 435F




Information forwarded to debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org, Debian WWW Team <debian-www@lists.debian.org>:
Bug#652631; Package www.debian.org. (Tue, 21 Feb 2012 13:54:03 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Acknowledgement sent to Francesca Ciceri <madamezou@debian.org>:
Extra info received and forwarded to list. Copy sent to Debian WWW Team <debian-www@lists.debian.org>. (Tue, 21 Feb 2012 13:54:07 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #20 received at 652631@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox):

From: Francesca Ciceri <madamezou@debian.org>
To: Bernd Zeimetz <bzed@debian.org>
Cc: debian-events-eu@lists.debian.org, 652631@bugs.debian.org, events@debian.org
Subject: Re: Bug#652631: www.debian.org: please clarify the distinction between 'events@d.o' and 'debian-events-*@lists.d.o'
Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2012 14:51:42 +0100
[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]
Hi all,
sorry for the late reply on this important discussion: lately I was
really really busy (in real life) and I just did Debian work if cruelly
pinged ;).

First of all, just a correction:

On Mon, Dec 26, 2011 at 01:30:10AM +0100, Bernd Zeimetz wrote:
> On 12/25/2011 11:11 PM, Arne Wichmann wrote:
> [...]
> >> b) at least for those who have access to Debian machines nothing is
> >>    happening behind the scene, given that 'events@d.o' is archived on
> >>    master [8].
> > 
> >> [8] <http://anonscm.debian.org/viewvc/webwml/webwml/english/events/README?revision=1.8&view=markup>
> > 
> > I have not. Am I the only one to which this applies?
> 
> No. we often have people organizing stuff which are not DDs.


Not-DDs can be added to @debian.org alias: at least I was added
at events@d.o when I wasn't a DD yet, and the same happened for
cdvendors@debian.org.


Wrt organization: wiki is really useful for organizing stuff. And is also quite
easy to follow the organization process *if* you're aware of the
existence of the wikipage.


On Mon, Dec 26, 2011 at 01:30:10AM +0100, Bernd Zeimetz wrote:
> 
> May be the events team should - instead of founding itself - talk to those
> people who are known to provide merch and booth material if they want to join
> and what they can provide?
[...]
> 
> Even better: the even team should consist of people from each d-events-$(locale)
> list (probably those who are organizing a lot of stuff).
> 


Oh!! Finally!
To make a long story short: I have no experience of organizing events,
for instance, and I'm in the events team just to do the promoting/www
part. 
It's quite a while that me and Luca are talking about enlarge the team, to
include at least 1 person from each part-of-the-world where events are
more regularly organized. 
This person need to be one who often organizes events/booths, so someone
with experience and who knows practical things about events.

Now, we usually have a lot of events in Europe mostly in the
German-speaking area, but also in France and UK.
Then we have few events in the US, some in Hispano
America and Brazil and a *lot* of events in India (thanks to the Debian
India group) and some in Taiwan.

I've thought about a couple of names for some of these areas (please fill the
list of possible candidates for this area, or propose yourself!), to be part of
the events team:

German-speaking area: Annette Kalbow, Arne Wichmann, Axel Beckert,
		      Franziska Lichtblau

France-speaking area: Carl Chenet, Sylvestre Ledru
UK: ...
US: ...
Hispano America: Fernando Estrada, Gunnar Wolf
Brazil: Ana Caroll Comandulli, Marcelo Santana
India: Praveen Arimbrathodiyil
Taiwan: Andrew Lee

I think that having (at least) one person for each area in the events
team, acting as a proxy between the local organizers and the Debian
Project could be a good idea.
Again (to avoid misunderstanding) I think that decentralized organization
is the best option due to the fact that "it works!"™, but there are some 
area where the Debian project could help:
promoting the events on internet, offering the Event Box and other
material, etc.
And this is actually the work to be done on the event team.
Just this :)

So, no problem (from my PoV) in let people organize events on specific
mailing lists and their languages, as far as there is a person who can
act as a proxy between local organizers and Debian. 

If you all agree on this part, I'd really like to start to send some 
invitation to the events team. ;)

Cheers
Francesca
-- 
"Nostra patria è il mondo intero
e nostra legge è la libertà
ed un pensiero
ribelle in cor ci sta."		P.Gori
[signature.asc (application/pgp-signature, inline)]

Information forwarded to debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org, Debian WWW Team <debian-www@lists.debian.org>:
Bug#652631; Package www.debian.org. (Thu, 23 Feb 2012 08:18:03 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Acknowledgement sent to Franziska Lichtblau <rhalina@old-forest.org>:
Extra info received and forwarded to list. Copy sent to Debian WWW Team <debian-www@lists.debian.org>. (Thu, 23 Feb 2012 08:18:03 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #25 received at 652631@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox):

From: Franziska Lichtblau <rhalina@old-forest.org>
To: Francesca Ciceri <madamezou@debian.org>
Cc: Bernd Zeimetz <bzed@debian.org>, debian-events-eu@lists.debian.org, 652631@bugs.debian.org, events@debian.org
Subject: Re: Bug#652631: www.debian.org: please clarify the distinction between 'events@d.o' and 'debian-events-*@lists.d.o'
Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2012 09:25:19 +0100
[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]
Hey, 

On Tue, Feb 21, 2012 at 02:51:42PM +0100, Francesca Ciceri wrote:
[...]
> First of all, just a correction:
> 
> On Mon, Dec 26, 2011 at 01:30:10AM +0100, Bernd Zeimetz wrote:
> > On 12/25/2011 11:11 PM, Arne Wichmann wrote:
> > [...]
> > >> b) at least for those who have access to Debian machines nothing is
> > >>    happening behind the scene, given that 'events@d.o' is archived on
> > >>    master [8].
> > > 
> > >> [8] <http://anonscm.debian.org/viewvc/webwml/webwml/english/events/README?revision=1.8&view=markup>
> > > 
> > > I have not. Am I the only one to which this applies?
> > 
> > No. we often have people organizing stuff which are not DDs.
> 
> 
> Not-DDs can be added to @debian.org alias: at least I was added
> at events@d.o when I wasn't a DD yet, and the same happened for
> cdvendors@debian.org.

Arne, Axel and me talked about this to Luka at Fosdem - this problems seems
to be solved. 

> Wrt organization: wiki is really useful for organizing stuff. And is also quite
> easy to follow the organization process *if* you're aware of the
> existence of the wikipage.

Same thing applies here: There seems to be just a misunderstanding. So the
workflow as I understood it is: Find an event, create a Wikipage, send
event-+wikilink to events@d.o and everything is fine. From there on the
event will be promoted and the organisation can happen in the wiki or via
mailinglist etc.

> On Mon, Dec 26, 2011 at 01:30:10AM +0100, Bernd Zeimetz wrote:
[...]
> > Even better: the even team should consist of people from each d-events-$(locale)
> > list (probably those who are organizing a lot of stuff).
> > 
> 
[...] 
> 
> I've thought about a couple of names for some of these areas (please fill the
> list of possible candidates for this area, or propose yourself!), to be part of
> the events team:
> 
> German-speaking area: Annette Kalbow, Arne Wichmann, Axel Beckert,
> 		      Franziska Lichtblau

All in all I'm not opposed to the idea, but I would like to see the
position more as "this is a person you can freely ask if you want to
oganize an event in $location - not as an active member trying to
coordinate events.
As for the german ares I'd bring up Alexander Wirt, even I he most likely
won't have time. He's doing the merch stuff for this area - so just for the
sake of completeness :) 

> France-speaking area: Carl Chenet, Sylvestre Ledru
> UK: ...
> US: ...
> Hispano America: Fernando Estrada, Gunnar Wolf
> Brazil: Ana Caroll Comandulli, Marcelo Santana
> India: Praveen Arimbrathodiyil
> Taiwan: Andrew Lee
> 
> I think that having (at least) one person for each area in the events
> team, acting as a proxy between the local organizers and the Debian
> Project could be a good idea.

ACK.

> Again (to avoid misunderstanding) I think that decentralized organization
> is the best option due to the fact that "it works!"™, but there are some 
> area where the Debian project could help:
> promoting the events on internet, offering the Event Box and other
> material, etc.
> And this is actually the work to be done on the event team.
> Just this :)

\o/ Good thing!

So from my pov most of this matter is settled :) 

CU,
Rhalina
[signature.asc (application/pgp-signature, inline)]

Information forwarded to debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org, Debian WWW Team <debian-www@lists.debian.org>:
Bug#652631; Package www.debian.org. (Mon, 27 Feb 2012 13:06:06 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Acknowledgement sent to Arne Wichmann <aw@anhrefn.saar.de>:
Extra info received and forwarded to list. Copy sent to Debian WWW Team <debian-www@lists.debian.org>. (Mon, 27 Feb 2012 13:06:09 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #30 received at 652631@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox):

From: Arne Wichmann <aw@anhrefn.saar.de>
To: Francesca Ciceri <madamezou@debian.org>, Franziska Lichtblau <rhalina@old-forest.org>
Cc: Bernd Zeimetz <bzed@debian.org>, debian-events-eu@lists.debian.org, 652631@bugs.debian.org, events@debian.org
Subject: Re: Bug#652631: www.debian.org: please clarify the distinction between 'events@d.o' and 'debian-events-*@lists.d.o'
Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2012 14:03:19 +0100
[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]
[partly reformatted]
begin  quotation  from Francesca Ciceri (in <20120221135142.GH8170@zouish.org>):
> sorry for the late reply on this important discussion: lately I was
> really really busy (in real life) and I just did Debian work if cruelly
> pinged ;).

Same for me.

> On Mon, Dec 26, 2011 at 01:30:10AM +0100, Bernd Zeimetz wrote:
> > On 12/25/2011 11:11 PM, Arne Wichmann wrote:
> > [...]
> > >> b) at least for those who have access to Debian machines nothing is
> > >>    happening behind the scene, given that 'events@d.o' is archived on
> > >>    master [8].
> > > 
> > >> [8] <http://anonscm.debian.org/viewvc/webwml/webwml/english/events/README?revision=1.8&view=markup>

Hm. Where is the archive?

> > > I have not. Am I the only one to which this applies?
> > 
> > No. we often have people organizing stuff which are not DDs.
> 
> Not-DDs can be added to @debian.org alias: at least I was added
> at events@d.o when I wasn't a DD yet, and the same happened for
> cdvendors@debian.org.
> 
> Wrt organization: wiki is really useful for organizing stuff. And is also
> quite easy to follow the organization process *if* you're aware of the
> existence of the wikipage.

Yep, this is one of the points.

> On Mon, Dec 26, 2011 at 01:30:10AM +0100, Bernd Zeimetz wrote:
> > May be the events team should - instead of founding itself - talk to those
> > people who are known to provide merch and booth material if they want to join
> > and what they can provide?
> [...]
> > 
> > Even better: the even team should consist of people from each d-events-$(locale)
> > list (probably those who are organizing a lot of stuff).
> 
> Oh!! Finally!
> To make a long story short: I have no experience of organizing events,
> for instance, and I'm in the events team just to do the promoting/www
> part. 
> It's quite a while that me and Luca are talking about enlarge the team, to
> include at least 1 person from each part-of-the-world where events are
> more regularly organized. 
> This person need to be one who often organizes events/booths, so someone
> with experience and who knows practical things about events.
> 
> Now, we usually have a lot of events in Europe mostly in the
> German-speaking area, but also in France and UK.
> Then we have few events in the US, some in Hispano
> America and Brazil and a *lot* of events in India (thanks to the Debian
> India group) and some in Taiwan.
> 
> I've thought about a couple of names for some of these areas (please fill
> the list of possible candidates for this area, or propose yourself!), to
> be part of the events team:
> 
> German-speaking area: Annette Kalbow, Arne Wichmann, Axel Beckert,
> 		      Franziska Lichtblau

I, at least, am not opposed to the idea.

> France-speaking area: Carl Chenet, Sylvestre Ledru
> UK: ...
> US: ...
> Hispano America: Fernando Estrada, Gunnar Wolf
> Brazil: Ana Caroll Comandulli, Marcelo Santana
> India: Praveen Arimbrathodiyil
> Taiwan: Andrew Lee

-nl had a quite active community when I last looked at it...

[...]
> If you all agree on this part, I'd really like to start to send some 
> invitation to the events team. ;)

Do. ;)

begin  quotation  from Franziska Lichtblau (in <20120223082519.GA31738@old-forest.org>):
> Hey, 
> 
> On Tue, Feb 21, 2012 at 02:51:42PM +0100, Francesca Ciceri wrote:
> [...]
> > First of all, just a correction:
> > 
> > On Mon, Dec 26, 2011 at 01:30:10AM +0100, Bernd Zeimetz wrote:
> > > On 12/25/2011 11:11 PM, Arne Wichmann wrote:
> > > [...]
> > > >> b) at least for those who have access to Debian machines nothing is
> > > >>    happening behind the scene, given that 'events@d.o' is archived on
> > > >>    master [8].
> > > > 
> > > >> [8] <http://anonscm.debian.org/viewvc/webwml/webwml/english/events/README?revision=1.8&view=markup>
> > > > 
> > > > I have not. Am I the only one to which this applies?
> > > 
> > > No. we often have people organizing stuff which are not DDs.
> > 
> > 
> > Not-DDs can be added to @debian.org alias: at least I was added
> > at events@d.o when I wasn't a DD yet, and the same happened for
> > cdvendors@debian.org.
> 
> Arne, Axel and me talked about this to Luka at Fosdem - this problems seems
> to be solved. 

Hm. What was the solution? I remember, at least for me it was mainly a
clarification of the workflow, as Rhalina wrote below.

> > Wrt organization: wiki is really useful for organizing stuff. And is
> > also quite easy to follow the organization process *if* you're aware of
> > the existence of the wikipage.
> 
> Same thing applies here: There seems to be just a misunderstanding. So the
> workflow as I understood it is: Find an event, create a Wikipage, send
> event-+wikilink to events@d.o and everything is fine. From there on the
> event will be promoted and the organisation can happen in the wiki or via
> mailinglist etc.

And this should be documented prominently - the workflow of event
organization. In my view it should be the following:

- If you find an event in which Debien could possibly take part, mail to
  debian-events-<region>.
- If you want to organize an event create a wiki page for it (documentation
  how to do that should be linked from here) and send mail to
  debian-events-<region> that you have done so. If you need more help state
  that in mail and wiki.
- if you have enough help send mail to events@d.o. with the wikilink and
  information about the event

cu

AW
-- 
[...] If you don't want to be restricted, don't agree to it. If you are
coerced, comply as much as you must to protect yourself, just don't support
it. Noone can free you but yourself. (crag, on Debian Planet)
Arne Wichmann (aw@linux.de)
[signature.asc (application/pgp-signature, inline)]

Information forwarded to debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org, Debian WWW Team <debian-www@lists.debian.org>:
Bug#652631; Package www.debian.org. (Tue, 28 Feb 2012 09:30:04 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Acknowledgement sent to "Thijs Kinkhorst" <thijs@debian.org>:
Extra info received and forwarded to list. Copy sent to Debian WWW Team <debian-www@lists.debian.org>. (Tue, 28 Feb 2012 09:30:10 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #35 received at 652631@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox):

From: "Thijs Kinkhorst" <thijs@debian.org>
To: "Arne Wichmann" <aw@anhrefn.saar.de>
Cc: "Francesca Ciceri" <madamezou@debian.org>, "Franziska Lichtblau" <rhalina@old-forest.org>, "Bernd Zeimetz" <bzed@debian.org>, debian-events-eu@lists.debian.org, 652631@bugs.debian.org, events@debian.org
Subject: Re: Bug#652631: www.debian.org: please clarify the distinction between 'events@d.o' and 'debian-events-*@lists.d.o'
Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2012 10:26:57 +0100
On Mon, February 27, 2012 14:03, Arne Wichmann wrote:
>> France-speaking area: Carl Chenet, Sylvestre Ledru
>> UK: ...
>> US: ...
>> Hispano America: Fernando Estrada, Gunnar Wolf
>> Brazil: Ana Caroll Comandulli, Marcelo Santana
>> India: Praveen Arimbrathodiyil
>> Taiwan: Andrew Lee
>
> -nl had a quite active community when I last looked at it...

For NL 'core' organisers seem to be Joost van Baal <joostvb@debian.org>,
Geert Stappers <stappers@debian.org>, Anne Bezemer (not a DD); with
regular involvement from at least a handful of others.


Thijs





Information forwarded to debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org, Debian WWW Team <debian-www@lists.debian.org>:
Bug#652631; Package www.debian.org. (Thu, 12 Sep 2013 21:03:04 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Acknowledgement sent to larjona99@gmail.com:
Extra info received and forwarded to list. Copy sent to Debian WWW Team <debian-www@lists.debian.org>. (Thu, 12 Sep 2013 21:03:04 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #40 received at 652631@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox):

From: Laura Arjona <larjona99@gmail.com>
To: 652631@bugs.debian.org
Subject: Re: Bug#652631: www.debian.org: please clarify the distinction between 'events@d.o' and 'debian-events-*@lists.d.o'
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2013 22:59:51 +0200
Hello
http://www.debian.org/events/admin has been modified recently so I
started to update its Spanish translation.

Then I found the last sentence:

"Above mentioned email address may be used to contact the events team
directly, but ideally members of the events team should read
debian-events-*@lists.debian.org mailinglists. (This is not true at
the moment as far as I can see.) "

And I found strange this part: "(This is not true at the moment as far
as I can see.) "
If I understood correctly this bug report, the events team monitors
those lists so that note in parenthesis may be deleted.

I also found a typo: "ressources" should be "resources" but I'm not
sure if I should open a different bug report [only] for that or can be
handled in this one.

Thank you very much.
Regards
Laura Arjona
https://wiki.debian.org/LauraArjona



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