Debian Bug report logs - #628515
recommending verbose build logs

Toggle useless messages

Message #5 received at submit@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Matthias Klose <doko@debian.org>

To: Debian Bug Tracking System <submit@bugs.debian.org>

Subject: recommending verbose build logs

Date: Sun, 29 May 2011 19:59:42 +0200

Package: debian-policy
Version: 3.9.2.0
Severity: normal

[https://lists.debian.org/debian-release/2011/03/msg00016.html]

It was suggested to move this to debian-policy.

It's always interesting to look at build logs, or to receive bug reports of the form

  CC
  <compiler error message>

or

  CCLD
  <linker error message>

without knowing how the compiler or the linker were called.  Maybe it is
convenient for a package maintainer watching the build scrolling by (some of
these are even colorized), but lacking this kind of information in the first
place seems to be the wrong thing.  So please let us deprecate this anti-feature
and recommend verbose build logs by default and only turn them off by request
(e.g. with DEB_BUILD_OPTIONS=noverbose).

The only reason (I know) for needing quiet builds logs should be handled
depending on the buildd (e.g. if sending/emailing a large log is unreliable).

The majority of quiet build logs comes from cmake based systems and (newer)
automake based systems, so maybe this could be handled by cdbs and debhelper for
the majority of packages.  Other proposals how to include the important
information would be welcome.

I would like to see a finalized proposal as a "soft" release goal, or a release
recommendation.

  Matthias

Message #10 received at 628515@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Bill Allombert <Bill.Allombert@math.u-bordeaux1.fr>

To: Matthias Klose <doko@debian.org>, 628515@bugs.debian.org

Subject: Re: Bug#628515: recommending verbose build logs

Date: Sun, 29 May 2011 20:11:33 +0200

On Sun, May 29, 2011 at 07:59:42PM +0200, Matthias Klose wrote:
> Package: debian-policy
> Version: 3.9.2.0
> Severity: normal
> 
> [https://lists.debian.org/debian-release/2011/03/msg00016.html]
> 
> It was suggested to move this to debian-policy.
> 
> It's always interesting to look at build logs, or to receive bug reports of the form
> 
>   CC
>   <compiler error message>
> 
> or
> 
>   CCLD
>   <linker error message>
> 
> without knowing how the compiler or the linker were called.  Maybe it is
> convenient for a package maintainer watching the build scrolling by (some of
> these are even colorized), but lacking this kind of information in the first
> place seems to be the wrong thing.  So please let us deprecate this anti-feature
> and recommend verbose build logs by default and only turn them off by request
> (e.g. with DEB_BUILD_OPTIONS=noverbose).
> 
> The only reason (I know) for needing quiet builds logs should be handled
> depending on the buildd (e.g. if sending/emailing a large log is unreliable).
> 
> The majority of quiet build logs comes from cmake based systems and (newer)
> automake based systems, so maybe this could be handled by cdbs and debhelper for
> the majority of packages.  Other proposals how to include the important
> information would be welcome.

To start with, do you know how to desactivate that feature in cmake and automake
(and the linux kernel)?

Cheers,
-- 
Bill. <ballombe@debian.org>

Imagine a large red swirl here. 

Message #15 received at 628515@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Matthias Klose <doko@debian.org>

To: Bill Allombert <Bill.Allombert@math.u-bordeaux1.fr>

Cc: 628515@bugs.debian.org

Subject: Re: Bug#628515: recommending verbose build logs

Date: Sun, 29 May 2011 20:15:14 +0200

On 05/29/2011 08:11 PM, Bill Allombert wrote:
> To start with, do you know how to desactivate that feature in cmake and automake
> (and the linux kernel)?

 - cmake: VERBOSE=1 (?)
 - automake: V=1
 - linux kernel: V=1

Message #20 received at 628515@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Cyril Brulebois <kibi@debian.org>

To: Bill Allombert <Bill.Allombert@math.u-bordeaux1.fr>, 628515@bugs.debian.org

Cc: Matthias Klose <doko@debian.org>

Subject: Re: Bug#628515: recommending verbose build logs

Date: Sun, 29 May 2011 20:19:00 +0200

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

Bill Allombert <Bill.Allombert@math.u-bordeaux1.fr> (29/05/2011):
> To start with, do you know how to desactivate that feature in cmake
> and automake (and the linux kernel)?

For automake.

When running make: V=1 to enable verbosity again if silent rules were
enabled.

At configure time: --disable-silent-rules does what the name suggests.

All details, see "silent-rules" on:
  http://www.gnu.org/s/hello/manual/automake/Options.html

Mraw,
KiBi.

[signature.asc (application/pgp-signature, inline)]

Message #25 received at 628515@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Jonathan Nieder <jrnieder@gmail.com>

To: 628515@bugs.debian.org

Cc: Matthias Klose <doko@debian.org>

Subject: Re: recommending verbose build logs

Date: Sun, 29 May 2011 13:32:03 -0500

Some notes for completeness.

Matthias Klose wrote:

>  - cmake: VERBOSE=1 (?)

Yes, or "cmake -DCMAKE_VERBOSE_MAKEFILE=1" at configure time.

>  - automake: V=1

As KiBi mentioned, --disable-silent-rules at configure time works,
too.

>  - linux kernel: V=1

The KBUILD_VERBOSE environment variable determines the default
behavior.

Message #30 received at 628515@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Jonathan Nieder <jrnieder@gmail.com>

To: Matthias Klose <doko@debian.org>

Cc: 628515@bugs.debian.org

Subject: Re: recommending verbose build logs

Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2011 18:37:03 -0600

Hi Matthias,

Matthias Klose wrote:

> It's always interesting to look at build logs, or to receive bug reports of the form
>
>   CC
>   <compiler error message>
>
> or
>
>   CCLD
>   <linker error message>
>
> without knowing how the compiler or the linker were called.  Maybe it is
> convenient for a package maintainer watching the build scrolling by (some of
> these are even colorized), but lacking this kind of information in the first
> place seems to be the wrong thing.  So please let us deprecate this anti-feature
> and recommend verbose build logs by default and only turn them off by request
> (e.g. with DEB_BUILD_OPTIONS=noverbose).

As much as I agree with your goal (being able to easily understand and
diagnose miscompilations and build failures) I do not suspect there is
a consensus for this.  Some maintainers enjoy reading abbreviated
build logs, where error messages and warnings stand out.

So how can we make progress anyway?  I would propose introducing
something very similar to what you mentioned above, but just flipping
the default.  People who want verbose build logs could use

	DEB_BUILD_OPTIONS=verbose

Then I think there would be a strong case for making that the default
on autobuilders, but that's a separate question, anyway.

Strawman patch below.  What do you think?

diff --git i/policy.sgml w/policy.sgml
index 31226328..34a195f1 100644
--- i/policy.sgml
+++ w/policy.sgml
@@ -2224,6 +2224,17 @@
 		  stripped from the binary during installation, so that
 		  debugging information may be included in the package.
 	      </item>
+	      <tag>verbose</tag>
+	      <item>
+		  This tag means that compiler and linker commands used to
+		  build the package should not be abbreviated in the
+		  log.<footnote>
+		      Packages built with <tt>cmake</tt>, autotools, or
+		      the Linux kernel build system can implement this by
+		      passing the parameters <tt>V=1</tt> and
+		      <tt>VERBOSE=1</tt> as arguments to <tt>make</tt>.
+		  </footnote>
+	      </item>
 	      <tag>parallel=n</tag>
 	      <item>
 		  This tag means that the package should be built using up
-- 

Message #35 received at 628515@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Jakub Wilk <jwilk@debian.org>

To: 628515@bugs.debian.org

Subject: Re: Bug#628515: recommending verbose build logs

Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2011 11:15:42 +0100

* Jonathan Nieder <jrnieder@gmail.com>, 2011-11-26, 18:37:
>Matthias Klose wrote:
>
>>It's always interesting to look at build logs, or to receive bug 
>>reports of the form
>>
>>  CC
>>  <compiler error message>
>>
>>or
>>
>>  CCLD
>>  <linker error message>
>>
>>without knowing how the compiler or the linker were called. Maybe it 
>>is convenient for a package maintainer watching the build scrolling by 
>>(some of these are even colorized), but lacking this kind of 
>>information in the first place seems to be the wrong thing.

Fully agreed.

>>So please let us deprecate this anti-feature and recommend verbose 
>>build logs by default and only turn them off by request (e.g. with 
>>DEB_BUILD_OPTIONS=noverbose).
>
>As much as I agree with your goal (being able to easily understand and 
>diagnose miscompilations and build failures) I do not suspect there is 
>a consensus for this.

Why do you think there is not?

>Some maintainers enjoy reading abbreviated build logs, where error 
>messages and warnings stand out.

Sure, that's why DEB_BUILD_OPTIONS=noverbose was proposed.

-- 
Jakub Wilk

Message #40 received at 628515@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Jonathan Nieder <jrnieder@gmail.com>

To: 628515@bugs.debian.org

Subject: Re: recommending verbose build logs

Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2011 04:39:33 -0600

Jakub Wilk wrote:
> * Jonathan Nieder <jrnieder@gmail.com>, 2011-11-26, 18:37:

[...]
>> I do not suspect there is a
>> consensus for this.
>
> Why do you think there is not?

I was guessing, it seems incorrectly, based on the lack of seconds
or other discussion on this policy proposal.

>> Some maintainers enjoy reading abbreviated build logs, where error
>> messages and warnings stand out.
>
> Sure, that's why DEB_BUILD_OPTIONS=noverbose was proposed.

I personally think that DEB_BUILD_OPTIONS=verbose would be better UI,
because the cases where abbreviated build logs are most useful are
during interactive builds (especially interactive builds by novices
who are not accustomed to looking at logs and do not realize they have
a choice about their format but may miss a warning).  In
non-interactive builds, it is easy to set an environment variable.

However:

 - My personal thoughts here don't matter.  I am not a DD.
 - Any spelling of DEB_BUILD_OPTIONS=verbose or DEB_BUILD_OPTIONS=quiet
   would be perfectly fine with me.

It sounds like we are ready for an improved wording?

Thanks for your help,
Jonathan

Message #45 received at 628515@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Jonathan Nieder <jrnieder@gmail.com>

To: 628515@bugs.debian.org

Subject: Re: recommending verbose build logs

Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 00:06:05 -0600

Hi Charles,

Charles Plessy wrote:

> I think that the best way to see which of verbose or noverbose is to be chosen
> would be to go through the soft release goal or release recommendation that
> Matthias advocated.  Once the mayonnaise thickens (once the recommendation is
> followed), then it will have its place in the Policy.

If there is enough consensus for a release goal, why not document
that consensus in Policy?  I don't get it.

Thanks,
Jonathan

Message #50 received at 628515@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Charles Plessy <plessy@debian.org>

To: 628515@bugs.debian.org

Subject: Re: Bug#628515: recommending verbose build logs

Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 16:11:59 +0900

Le Mon, Nov 28, 2011 at 12:06:05AM -0600, Jonathan Nieder a écrit :
> 
> > I think that the best way to see which of verbose or noverbose is to be chosen
> > would be to go through the soft release goal or release recommendation that
> > Matthias advocated.  Once the mayonnaise thickens (once the recommendation is
> > followed), then it will have its place in the Policy.
> 
> If there is enough consensus for a release goal, why not document
> that consensus in Policy?  I don't get it.

Hi Jonathan

it seems to me that the best way to materialise a consensus for a release goal
is to actually get it listed in http://release.debian.org/wheezy/goals.txt and
have the work started.  This will protect the Policy from documenting options
that are not implemented.  In line with this, http://wiki.debian.org/PolicyChangesProcess
mentions “the proposed solution be known to work”.

Cheers,

-- 
Charles Plessy
Tsurumi, Kanagawa, Japan

Message #55 received at 628515@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Jonathan Nieder <jrnieder@gmail.com>

To: 628515@bugs.debian.org

Subject: Re: recommending verbose build logs

Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 01:28:10 -0600

Charles Plessy wrote:

> it seems to me that the best way to materialise a consensus for a release goal
> is to actually get it listed in http://release.debian.org/wheezy/goals.txt and
> have the work started.  This will protect the Policy from documenting options
> that are not implemented.  In line with this, http://wiki.debian.org/PolicyChangesProcess
> mentions “the proposed solution be known to work”.

Ok, I guess I still don't understand.

Suppose http://release.debian.org/wheezy/goals.txt says that packages
should support some DEB_BUILD_OPTIONS flag, maintainer can decide what
name it is, to enable or suppress the full command line for the compiler
and linker.  Would that be progress?

On the other hand, if you are saying that packagers should not wait
for any official pronouncement to implement whatever
DEB_BUILD_OPTIONS=verbose/quiet option they please, then I would agree
with you.  xz-utils has supported DEB_BUILD_OPTIONS=quiet for a while
now.  However, I thought Matthias was looking for something more
consistent between packages, like making sure that logs are verbose
when DEB_BUILD_OPTIONS is unset (or making sure that logs are verbose
when DEB_BUILD_OPTIONS=verbose, whatever.  Either way.)

Hoping that clarifies a little,
Jonathan

Message #60 received at 628515@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Raphael Hertzog <hertzog@debian.org>

To: Jonathan Nieder <jrnieder@gmail.com>, 628515@bugs.debian.org

Subject: Re: Bug#628515: recommending verbose build logs

Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 08:54:37 +0100

Hi,

On Mon, 28 Nov 2011, Jonathan Nieder wrote:
> On the other hand, if you are saying that packagers should not wait
> for any official pronouncement to implement whatever
> DEB_BUILD_OPTIONS=verbose/quiet option they please, then I would agree
> with you.  xz-utils has supported DEB_BUILD_OPTIONS=quiet for a while
> now.  However, I thought Matthias was looking for something more
> consistent between packages, like making sure that logs are verbose
> when DEB_BUILD_OPTIONS is unset (or making sure that logs are verbose
> when DEB_BUILD_OPTIONS=verbose, whatever.  Either way.)

For reference dpkg supports "DEB_BUILD_OPTIONS=maintainer-build" that
enables the silent rules and I have an alias "dpkgbuild" that avoids
me to have to type this every time.

Maybe a discussion on -devel would be helpful to try to standardize on a
name.

I also think that it would be more convenient to have the buildd set the
verbose mode and others to have the silent rules by default but I don't
think this is going to take traction. We have quite a few bugreports from
users doing rebuilds and it's best to get verbose build logs in those
cases.

That's why I suggest to aim directly for the opposite: verbose by default
and silent with a switch that maintainers can add. Ideally though debuild
would get support for this option and could be taught to set it
via some ~/.devscripts setting.

Cheers,
-- 
Raphaël Hertzog ◈ Debian Developer

Pre-order a copy of the Debian Administrator's Handbook and help
liberate it: http://debian-handbook.info/go/ulule-rh/

Message #65 received at 628515@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Jonathan Nieder <jrnieder@gmail.com>

To: Raphael Hertzog <hertzog@debian.org>

Cc: 628515@bugs.debian.org

Subject: Re: recommending verbose build logs

Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 02:23:43 -0600

Raphael Hertzog wrote:

> For reference dpkg supports "DEB_BUILD_OPTIONS=maintainer-build"
[...]
> I also think that it would be more convenient to have the buildd set the
> verbose mode and others to have the silent rules by default but I don't
> think this is going to take traction. We have quite a few bugreports from
> users doing rebuilds and it's best to get verbose build logs in those
> cases.
>
> That's why I suggest to aim directly for the opposite: verbose by default
> and silent with a switch that maintainers can add.

Makes sense to me, fwiw.  Thanks for explaining.

Message #70 received at 628515@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Bill Allombert <Bill.Allombert@math.u-bordeaux1.fr>

To: Jonathan Nieder <jrnieder@gmail.com>, 628515@bugs.debian.org

Subject: Re: Bug#628515: recommending verbose build logs

Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 12:09:56 +0100

On Sun, Nov 27, 2011 at 04:39:33AM -0600, Jonathan Nieder wrote:
> Jakub Wilk wrote:
> > * Jonathan Nieder <jrnieder@gmail.com>, 2011-11-26, 18:37:
> 
> [...]
> >> I do not suspect there is a
> >> consensus for this.
> >
> > Why do you think there is not?
> 
> I was guessing, it seems incorrectly, based on the lack of seconds
> or other discussion on this policy proposal.
> 
> >> Some maintainers enjoy reading abbreviated build logs, where error
> >> messages and warnings stand out.
> >
> > Sure, that's why DEB_BUILD_OPTIONS=noverbose was proposed.
> 
> I personally think that DEB_BUILD_OPTIONS=verbose would be better UI,
> because the cases where abbreviated build logs are most useful are
> during interactive builds (especially interactive builds by novices
> who are not accustomed to looking at logs and do not realize they have
> a choice about their format but may miss a warning).  In
> non-interactive builds, it is easy to set an environment variable.

I suppose we want the autobuilders to generate verbose log,
but I am not sure if we want the autobuilders to use a non-empty 
DEB_BUILD_OPTIONS (and whether we can).

It is unfortunately possible than a typo in debian/rules only trigger
if DEB_BUILD_OPTIONS is set to some value.

Most packages will only provide verbose log, so it is rather terse
logs that are optionnal. So maybe the option should be
DEB_BUILD_OPTIONS=terse.

Cheers,
-- 
Bill. <ballombe@debian.org>

Imagine a large red swirl here. 

Message #75 received at 628515@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Jakub Wilk <jwilk@debian.org>

To: 628515@bugs.debian.org

Subject: Re: Bug#628515: recommending verbose build logs

Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 13:17:42 +0100

* Charles Plessy <plessy@debian.org>, 2011-11-28, 16:11:
>it seems to me that the best way to materialise a consensus for a 
>release goal is to actually get it listed in 
>http://release.debian.org/wheezy/goals.txt and have the work started.

Matthias has already proposed it as RG, and he was redirected here: 
http://lists.debian.org/debian-release/2011/03/msg00023.html

>This will protect the Policy from documenting options that are not 
>implemented.  In line with this, 
>http://wiki.debian.org/PolicyChangesProcess mentions “the proposed 
>solution be known to work”.

Well, I believe the fundamental part of the proposal (making build logs 
verbose by default) is mostly already implemented, i.e. majority of 
packages do produce verbose build logs.

-- 
Jakub Wilk

Message #80 received at 628515@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org>

To: Bill Allombert <Bill.Allombert@math.u-bordeaux1.fr>

Cc: 628515@bugs.debian.org, Jonathan Nieder <jrnieder@gmail.com>

Subject: Re: Bug#628515: recommending verbose build logs

Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 11:37:41 -0800

Bill Allombert <Bill.Allombert@math.u-bordeaux1.fr> writes:

> Most packages will only provide verbose log, so it is rather terse logs
> that are optionnal. So maybe the option should be
> DEB_BUILD_OPTIONS=terse.

I agree with this.  Most packages are already doing the right thing, and I
think terse logs should be the non-default option.

What should we do about cases where the upstream build system makes it
difficult to override the verbosity?  In other words, is this a place
where we should push Debian package maintainers to actually fix the
upstream build system to make build logs verbose even if upstream doesn't
support that as an option?  I'm thinking, for example, of some of djb's
public domain software, where the compiler invocation is stored in a shell
script and therefore doesn't appear usefully in the build output.  Or
should Policy just be saying that packagers should enable the verbose
option by default if there is one?

-- 
Russ Allbery (rra@debian.org)               <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>

Message #85 received at 628515@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Cyril Brulebois <kibi@debian.org>

To: Bill Allombert <Bill.Allombert@math.u-bordeaux1.fr>, 628515@bugs.debian.org

Cc: Jonathan Nieder <jrnieder@gmail.com>

Subject: Re: Bug#628515: recommending verbose build logs

Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 22:13:09 +0100

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

Bill Allombert <Bill.Allombert@math.u-bordeaux1.fr> (28/11/2011):
> I suppose we want the autobuilders to generate verbose log, but I am not
> sure if we want the autobuilders to use a non-empty DEB_BUILD_OPTIONS
> (and whether we can).
> 
> It is unfortunately possible than a typo in debian/rules only trigger if
> DEB_BUILD_OPTIONS is set to some value.
> 
> Most packages will only provide verbose log, so it is rather terse logs
> that are optionnal. So maybe the option should be
> DEB_BUILD_OPTIONS=terse.

(While I'm open to other names,) I agree with the reasoning and the
proposed name.

Mraw,
KiBi.

[signature.asc (application/pgp-signature, inline)]

Message #90 received at 628515@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Bill Allombert <Bill.Allombert@math.u-bordeaux1.fr>

To: Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org>, 628515@bugs.debian.org

Cc: Jonathan Nieder <jrnieder@gmail.com>

Subject: Re: Bug#628515: recommending verbose build logs

Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 23:13:46 +0100

On Mon, Nov 28, 2011 at 11:37:41AM -0800, Russ Allbery wrote:
> Bill Allombert <Bill.Allombert@math.u-bordeaux1.fr> writes:
> 
> > Most packages will only provide verbose log, so it is rather terse logs
> > that are optionnal. So maybe the option should be
> > DEB_BUILD_OPTIONS=terse.
> 
> I agree with this.  Most packages are already doing the right thing, and I
> think terse logs should be the non-default option.
> 
> What should we do about cases where the upstream build system makes it
> difficult to override the verbosity?  In other words, is this a place
> where we should push Debian package maintainers to actually fix the
> upstream build system to make build logs verbose even if upstream doesn't
> support that as an option?  I'm thinking, for example, of some of djb's
> public domain software, where the compiler invocation is stored in a shell
> script and therefore doesn't appear usefully in the build output.  Or
> should Policy just be saying that packagers should enable the verbose
> option by default if there is one?

We should start by providing instruction on how to turn on verbose log on the
most common build systems and deal with exceptions later. Is there some wiki page
already ?

Build systems can be sneaky. For example upgrading automake to 1.11 will 
activate terse log by default without notice, so the developpers are in the 
painful situation to have to disable a feature they never wanted to activate in
the first place.

Cheers,
-- 
Bill. <ballombe@debian.org>

Imagine a large red swirl here. 

Message #95 received at 628515@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org>

To: Bill Allombert <Bill.Allombert@math.u-bordeaux1.fr>

Cc: 628515@bugs.debian.org, Jonathan Nieder <jrnieder@gmail.com>

Subject: Re: Bug#628515: recommending verbose build logs

Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 14:18:01 -0800

Bill Allombert <Bill.Allombert@math.u-bordeaux1.fr> writes:

> For example upgrading automake to 1.11 will activate terse log by
> default without notice, so the developpers are in the painful situation
> to have to disable a feature they never wanted to activate in the first
> place.

I'm fairly certain this is not the case.  That was the original proposal,
and perhaps the original implementation, but there was a lot of pushback
on the Automake development list, and looking at the documentation for
Automake 1.11, it is not currently the default.

     To enable less verbose build rules, both the developer and the user
     of the package have to take a number of steps.  The developer needs
     to do either of the following:

        * Add the `silent-rules' option as argument to
          `AM_INIT_AUTOMAKE'.

        * Call the `AM_SILENT_RULES' macro from within the
          `configure.ac' file.

     It is not possible to instead specify `silent-rules' in a
     `Makefile.am' file.

     If the developer has done either of the above, then the user of the
     package may influence the verbosity at `configure' run time as
     well as at `make' run time:

        * Passing `--enable-silent-rules' to `configure' will cause
          build rules to be less verbose; the option
          `--disable-silent-rules' is the default and will cause normal
          verbose output.

        * At `make' run time, the default chosen at `configure' time
          may be overridden: `make V=1' will produce verbose output,
          `make V=0' less verbose output.

-- 
Russ Allbery (rra@debian.org)               <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>

Message #100 received at 628515@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Jonathan Nieder <jrnieder@gmail.com>

To: 628515@bugs.debian.org

Subject: Re: recommending verbose build logs

Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 23:34:54 -0600

Russ Allbery wrote:

> What should we do about cases where the upstream build system makes it
> difficult to override the verbosity?  In other words, is this a place
> where we should push Debian package maintainers to actually fix the
> upstream build system to make build logs verbose even if upstream doesn't
> support that as an option?  I'm thinking, for example, of some of djb's
> public domain software, where the compiler invocation is stored in a shell
> script

Good question.  IMHO yes, we should encourage packagers to help
upstream provide an option that makes the logs indicate how the
compiler was invoked, to make reproducing and debugging problems
easier.

In the kind of build system you're talking about, something like

	[ -z "$V" ] || set -x

at the top of the compiler invocation script could do the trick.

Message #105 received at 628515@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Matthias Klose <doko@debian.org>

To: 628515@bugs.debian.org

Subject: Re: recommending verbose build logs

Date: Fri, 03 May 2013 21:41:31 +0200

let me follow-up on this before jessie opens, and hopefully we can come to an
agreement how to get this done for jessie. Since 2011, some tools are now
looking at build logs (or should), and verbose build logs are required to make
more use of these tools:

 - the build log checker: https://buildd.debian.org/~brlink/
   now identifies 995 packages with "compiler-flags-hidden", so that
   seem to be ~15% of all source packages building architecture dependent
   packages which cannot be analysed by the build log checker.

 - hardening is a release goal for wheezy.  The current approach to
   analyse the binaries for hardened compiler flags gives many false
   positives for extension modules for interpreted languages. So
   a build log check could be used to eliminate these false positives.
   So we have a release goal, but incomplete tools to diagnose if
   we meet this goal.
   Afaics, hardening-wrapper can not:

    - see if a binary was built with -O0, and stop complaining about
      fortify (#694618),

    - can not diagnose objects not referencing any of the fortify
      functions provided by glibc.

   A build log check based on verbose build logs would help here.


> I suppose we want the autobuilders to generate verbose log,
> but I am not sure if we want the autobuilders to use a non-empty
> DEB_BUILD_OPTIONS (and whether we can).

Most autobuilders already set DEB_BUILD_OPTIONS=parallel=<n>, so this can be
done, and is already in use.

Using the `terse' or `silent' keyword sounds fine.  However maybe make it clear
how DEB_BUILD_OPTIONS=verbose,terse would work (suggesting here that verbose
should overwrite terse).

  Matthias

Message #110 received at 628515@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Matthias Klose <doko@debian.org>

To: 628515@bugs.debian.org

Subject: status of this issue?

Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2014 15:52:18 +0100

This issue is now again silent for eight months.  Is there anything missing, or
any other reason why the issue doesn't see any progress?  So maybe I am
expecting something which I shouldn't expect, however the silence seems to be a
bit odd.

  Matthias

Message #115 received at 628515@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Jonathan Nieder <jrnieder@gmail.com>

To: Matthias Klose <doko@debian.org>

Cc: 628515@bugs.debian.org

Subject: Re: recommending verbose build logs

Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2014 08:38:07 -0800

Hi,

Matthias Klose wrote:

> This issue is now again silent for eight months.  Is there anything missing, or
> any other reason why the issue doesn't see any progress?

I believe there is a consensus that packages should produce verbose
build logs by default and can optionally produce terse logs with
DEB_BUILD_OPTIONS=terse and this is just waiting on someone to propose
wording in policy to that effect.

A patch against git://git.debian.org/dbnpolicy/policy.git is best, but
rough proposed wording ("in section x, add: ...") is also fine.

Thanks for poking.

Jonathan

Message #120 received at 628515@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Bill Allombert <Bill.Allombert@math.u-bordeaux1.fr>

To: Jonathan Nieder <jrnieder@gmail.com>, 628515@bugs.debian.org

Cc: Matthias Klose <doko@debian.org>

Subject: Re: Bug#628515: recommending verbose build logs

Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2014 19:29:03 +0100

On Wed, Jan 29, 2014 at 08:38:07AM -0800, Jonathan Nieder wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> Matthias Klose wrote:
> 
> > This issue is now again silent for eight months.  Is there anything missing, or
> > any other reason why the issue doesn't see any progress?
> 
> I believe there is a consensus that packages should produce verbose
> build logs by default and can optionally produce terse logs with
> DEB_BUILD_OPTIONS=terse and this is just waiting on someone to propose
> wording in policy to that effect.
> 
> A patch against git://git.debian.org/dbnpolicy/policy.git is best, but
> rough proposed wording ("in section x, add: ...") is also fine.

A wiki page documenting how verbose build logs can be produced with the common 
build systems would be helpful. This would also help defining what 'verbose' means.

Cheers,
Bill.

Message #125 received at 628515@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Joey Hess <joeyh@debian.org>

To: 628515@bugs.debian.org

Subject: Re: Bug#628515: recommending verbose build logs

Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2014 15:35:02 -0400

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

Johnathan raises important concerns in 
http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?msg=40;bug=628515
These have never been addressed by any proponents of verbose build logs
AFAIK.

I raise similar concerns in #680686. There is also discussion there of
making dpkg-buildpackage produce a smart display for interactive builds
(fleeting display of verbose messages with warnings separated out and
highlighted) while logging the full verbose build. The dpkg maintainers
have not indicated if they are willing to add that to dpkg-buildpackage.

Also, there seems to be no consensus about what "verbose" means. Many
build systems have multiple levels of verbosity. The closest this
proposal comes to guidance about what level of verbosity is desired is
to say we want compiler and linker command lines.

(Personally, I do *not* want this output to my screen every build.
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'-lHSpureMD5-2.1.2.1' '-lHSpersistent-template-1.2.0.4' '-lHSpersistent-1.2.2.0' '-lHSsilently-1.2.4' '-lHSpool-conduit-0.1.2' '-lHSresource-pool-0.2.1.1' '-lHSpath-pieces-0.1.2' '-lHSmonad-logger-0.3.1.1' '-lHSmime-mail-0.4.1.2' '-lHSfile-embed-0.0.6' '-lHSemail-validate-1.0.0' '-lHSauthenticate-1.3.2.6' '-lHSxml-conduit-1.1.0.9' '-lHSsystem-filepath-0.4.7' '-lHStagsoup-0.13' '-lHShttp-conduit-1.9.5.2' '-lHStls-extra-0.6.6' '-lHScipher-rc4-0.1.4' '-lHStls-1.1.5' '-lHScrypto-pubkey-0.2.3' '-lHScrypto-numbers-0.2.3' '-lHSsocks-0.4.1' '-lHSpublicsuffixlist-0.1' '-lHSidna-0.2' '-lHSstringprep-0.1.5' '-lHStext-icu-0.6.3.7' '-licui18n' '-licudata' '-licuuc' '-lHSranges-0.2.4' '-lHSpunycode-2.0' '-lHSmime-types-0.1.0.0' '-lHScookie-0.4.0.1' '-lHScertificate-1.3.9' '-lHSpem-0.2.1' '-lHScrypto-pubkey-types-0.4.1' '-lHSasn1-types-0.2.2' '-lHSasn1-data-0.7.1' '-lHSyaml-0.8.5.1' '-lyaml' '-lHSwai-extra-1.3.3.2' '-lHSzlib-conduit-1.0.0' '-lHSzlib-bindings-0.1.1.1' '-lHSzlib-0.5.4.1' '-lz' '-lHSstringsearch-0.3.6.4' '-lHSshakespeare-js-1.1.0' '-lHSshakespeare-css-1.0.6.2' '-lHSsafe-0.3.3' '-lHSwarp-1.3.9' '-lHSsimple-sendfile-0.2.11' '-lHShttp-attoparsec-0.1.0' '-lHSblaze-builder-conduit-1.0.0' '-lHSwai-logger-0.3.1' '-lHSfast-logger-0.3.3' '-lHSunix-time-0.2.0' '-lHSdate-cache-0.3.0' '-lHSwai-1.4.0.2' '-lHSvault-0.3.0.2' '-lHSuuid-1.2.3' '-lHSmaccatcher-2.1.5' '-lHSunix-compat-0.4.0.0' '-lHStasty-rerun-1.0.1' '-lHSsplit-0.2.2' '-lHSreducers-3.10.1.1' '-lHSpointed-4.0' '-lHSdata-default-class-0.0.1' '-lHSkeys-3.10' '-lHSfree-4.2' '-lHSprofunctors-4.0.1' '-lHSbifunctors-4.1.0.1' '-lHSfingertree-0.1.0.0' '-lHStasty-quickcheck-0.3.1' '-lHStasty-hunit-0.4.1' '-lHStasty-0.7' '-lHSeither-4.1' '-lHSsemigroupoids-4.0' '-lHScomonad-4.0' '-lHSdistributive-0.3' '-lHScontravariant-0.4.4' '-lHSMonadRandom-0.1.6' '-lHSansi-terminal-0.6.1' '-lHSregex-tdfa-1.1.8' '-lHSoptparse-applicative-0.7.0.2' '-lHSnetwork-protocol-xmpp-0.4.4' '-lHSgsasl-0.3.5' '-lgsasl' '-lHSgnuidn-0.2' '-lidn' '-lidn' '-lHSnetwork-multicast-0.0.10' '-lHSnetwork-info-0.2.0.3' '-lHSjson-0.5' '-lHShttp-types-0.8.3' '-lHShinotify-0.3.5' '-lHShamlet-1.1.7.1' '-lHSshakespeare-1.0.2' '-lHSfailure-0.2.0.1' '-lHSblaze-html-0.6.1.2' '-lHSblaze-markup-0.5.1.6' '-lHShS3-0.5.7' '-lHShxt-9.3.1.1' '-lHShxt-unicode-9.0.2' '-lHShxt-regex-xmlschema-9.0.4' '-lHShxt-charproperties-9.1.1' '-lHSCrypto-4.2.5' '-lHSgnutls-0.1.4' '-lgnutls' '-lgnutls' '-lHSmonads-tf-0.1.0.1' '-lHSfeed-0.3.8' '-lHSxml-1.3.12' '-lHSutf8-string-0.3.7' '-lHSedit-distance-0.2.1.1' '-lHSdns-1.0.0' '-lHSnetwork-conduit-1.0.0' '-lHSiproute-1.2.11' '-lHSbyteorder-1.0.4' '-lHSappar-0.1.4' '-lHSattoparsec-conduit-1.0.1.2' '-lHSconduit-1.0.9.3' '-lHSvoid-0.6.1' '-lHSsemigroups-0.9' '-lHSnats-0.1.2' '-lHSresourcet-0.4.7.1' '-lHSmmorph-1.0.0' '-lHSlifted-base-0.2.0.3' '-lHSmonad-control-0.3.2.2' '-lHStransformers-base-0.4.1' '-lHSbase-unicode-symbols-0.2.2.4' '-lHSdbus-0.10.4' '-lHSlibxml-sax-0.7.3' '-lxml2' '-lxml2' '-lHSxml-types-0.3.4' '-lHSdataenc-0.14.0.4' '-lHSdata-default-0.5.1' '-lHScryptohash-0.11.1' '-lHSclientsession-0.9.0.3' '-lHSskein-1.0.8' '-lHScrypto-api-0.12.2.2' '-lHStagged-0.7' '-lHSentropy-0.2.1' '-lHScprng-aes-0.5.2' '-lHScrypto-random-0.0.7' '-lHScipher-aes-0.2.6' '-lHScrypto-cipher-types-0.0.9' '-lHSsecuremem-0.1.3' '-lHSbyteable-0.1.1' '-lHScereal-0.3.5.2' '-lHSbase64-bytestring-1.0.0.1' '-lHScase-insensitive-1.1.0.2' '-lHSbloomfilter-1.2.6.10' '-lHSasync-2.0.1.4' '-lHSaeson-0.6.2.1' '-lHSvector-0.10.0.1' '-lHSprimitive-0.5.0.1' '-lHSunordered-containers-0.2.3.0' '-lHSsyb-0.4.0' '-lHShashable-1.2.1.0' '-lHSdlist-0.5' '-lHSblaze-builder-0.3.3.0' '-lHSattoparsec-0.10.4.0' '-lHSSafeSemaphore-0.9.0' '-lHSstm-2.4.2' '-lHSSHA-1.6.1' '-lHSbinary-0.5.1.1' '-lHSQuickCheck-2.6' '-lHStemplate-haskell-2.8.0.0' '-lHSpretty-1.1.1.0' '-lHSMonadCatchIO-transformers-0.3.0.0' '-lHSextensible-exceptions-0.1.1.4' '-lHSMissingH-1.2.0.0' '-lHSregex-compat-0.95.1' '-lHSregex-posix-0.95.2' '-lHSregex-base-0.93.2' '-lHSrandom-1.0.1.1' '-lHShslogger-1.2.1' '-lHSprocess-1.1.0.2' '-lHSdirectory-1.2.0.1' '-lHSfilepath-1.3.0.1' '-lHScontainers-0.5.0.0' '-lHSHUnit-1.2.5.2' '-lHSIfElse-0.85.0.0.1' '-lHSHTTP-4000.2.8' '-lHSold-time-1.1.0.1' '-lHSnetwork-2.4.1.2' '-lHSunix-2.6.0.1' '-lrt' '-lutil' '-ldl' '-lpthread' '-lHStime-1.4.0.1' '-lHSold-locale-1.0.0.5' '-lHSparsec-3.1.3' '-lHStext-0.11.3.1' '-lHSmtl-2.1.2' '-lHStransformers-0.3.0.0' '-lHSbytestring-0.10.0.2' '-lHSdeepseq-1.3.0.1' '-lHSarray-0.4.0.1' '-lHSbase-4.6.0.1' '-lHSinteger-gmp-0.5.0.0' '-lgmp' '-lHSghc-prim-0.3.0.0' '-lHSrts_thr' '-lffi' '-lm' '-lrt' '-ldl' '-u' 'ghczmprim_GHCziTypes_Izh_static_info' '-u' 'ghczmprim_GHCziTypes_Czh_static_info' '-u' 'ghczmprim_GHCziTypes_Fzh_static_info' '-u' 'ghczmprim_GHCziTypes_Dzh_static_info' '-u' 'base_GHCziPtr_Ptr_static_info' '-u' 'ghczmprim_GHCziTypes_Wzh_static_info' '-u' 'base_GHCziInt_I8zh_static_info' '-u' 'base_GHCziInt_I16zh_static_info' '-u' 'base_GHCziInt_I32zh_static_info' '-u' 'base_GHCziInt_I64zh_static_info' '-u' 'base_GHCziWord_W8zh_static_info' '-u' 'base_GHCziWord_W16zh_static_info' '-u' 'base_GHCziWord_W32zh_static_info' '-u' 'base_GHCziWord_W64zh_static_info' '-u' 'base_GHCziStable_StablePtr_static_info' '-u' 'ghczmprim_GHCziTypes_Izh_con_info' '-u' 'ghczmprim_GHCziTypes_Czh_con_info' '-u' 'ghczmprim_GHCziTypes_Fzh_con_info' '-u' 'ghczmprim_GHCziTypes_Dzh_con_info' '-u' 'base_GHCziPtr_Ptr_con_info' '-u' 'base_GHCziPtr_FunPtr_con_info' '-u' 'base_GHCziStable_StablePtr_con_info' '-u' 'ghczmprim_GHCziTypes_False_closure' '-u' 'ghczmprim_GHCziTypes_True_closure' '-u' 'base_GHCziPack_unpackCString_closure' '-u' 'base_GHCziIOziException_stackOverflow_closure' '-u' 'base_GHCziIOziException_heapOverflow_closure' '-u' 'base_ControlziExceptionziBase_nonTermination_closure' '-u' 'base_GHCziIOziException_blockedIndefinitelyOnMVar_closure' '-u' 'base_GHCziIOziException_blockedIndefinitelyOnSTM_closure' '-u' 'base_ControlziExceptionziBase_nestedAtomically_closure' '-u' 'base_GHCziWeak_runFinalizzerBatch_closure' '-u' 'base_GHCziTopHandler_flushStdHandles_closure' '-u' 'base_GHCziTopHandler_runIO_closure' '-u' 'base_GHCziTopHandler_runNonIO_closure' '-u' 'base_GHCziConcziIO_ensureIOManagerIsRunning_closure' '-u' 'base_GHCziConcziSync_runSparks_closure' '-u' 'base_GHCziConcziSignal_runHandlers_closure' '-lpthread'
Especially because there is no way to get that output without also
enabling literally tens of thousands of lines of other output.)

-- 
esee shy jo

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Message #130 received at 628515@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Bill Allombert <Bill.Allombert@math.u-bordeaux1.fr>

To: Joey Hess <joeyh@debian.org>, 628515@bugs.debian.org

Subject: Re: Bug#628515: recommending verbose build logs

Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2014 22:33:19 +0100

On Sun, Feb 09, 2014 at 03:35:02PM -0400, Joey Hess wrote:
> Johnathan raises important concerns in 
> http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?msg=40;bug=628515
> These have never been addressed by any proponents of verbose build logs
> AFAIK.

The issue is that it is dangerous to upload packages built with a different
DEB_BUILD_OPTIONS than the one on the buildd.
So it is safer to keep the baseline at 'no options', otherwise all tools used
to build package (sbuild, pbuilder, etc.) need to be updated when the default
DEB_BUILD_OPTIONS change.

> I raise similar concerns in #680686. There is also discussion there of
> making dpkg-buildpackage produce a smart display for interactive builds
> (fleeting display of verbose messages with warnings separated out and
> highlighted) while logging the full verbose build. The dpkg maintainers
> have not indicated if they are willing to add that to dpkg-buildpackage.
> 
> Also, there seems to be no consensus about what "verbose" means. Many
> build systems have multiple levels of verbosity. The closest this
> proposal comes to guidance about what level of verbosity is desired is
> to say we want compiler and linker command lines.

All the more reasons to have a wiki page that document the logging behaviour of
the common build systems.

Cheers,
Bill.

Message #135 received at 628515@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Joey Hess <joeyh@debian.org>

To: 628515@bugs.debian.org

Subject: Re: Bug#628515: recommending verbose build logs

Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2014 18:47:13 -0400

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

Bill Allombert wrote:
> The issue is that it is dangerous to upload packages built with a different
> DEB_BUILD_OPTIONS than the one on the buildd.

Much less dangerous than it is to upload packages built with a different
dpkg-buildpackage -j

-- 
see shy jo

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Message #140 received at 628515@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Guillem Jover <guillem@debian.org>

To: Joey Hess <joeyh@debian.org>, 628515@bugs.debian.org

Subject: Re: Bug#628515: recommending verbose build logs

Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 04:08:12 +0100

Hi!

On Sun, 2014-02-09 at 15:35:02 -0400, Joey Hess wrote:
> I raise similar concerns in #680686. There is also discussion there of
> making dpkg-buildpackage produce a smart display for interactive builds
> (fleeting display of verbose messages with warnings separated out and
> highlighted) while logging the full verbose build. The dpkg maintainers
> have not indicated if they are willing to add that to dpkg-buildpackage.

  <https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2013/08/msg00281.html>

Thanks,
Guillem

Message #145 received at 628515@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: www-data@tradepaddleboards.com (www-data)

To: 628515@bugs.debian.org

Subject: Please recheck your delivery address (UPS parcel 001168162)

Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2017 01:46:32 -0500

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

Dear Customer,

Your item has arrived at the UPS Post Office at February 19, but the courier was unable to deliver parcel to you.

Review the document that is attached to this e-mail!

Sincerely yours,
Francisco Driscoll,
UPS Office Manager.

[UPS-Receipt-001168162.zip (application/zip, attachment)]

Message #150 received at 628515@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Wang_Jalian <school19@kan.kubannet.ru>

To: undisclosed-recipients:;

Subject: Hallo Freund

Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2017 12:55:06 +0100

-- 
ICH BRAUCHE IHRE DRINGENDEN ANTWORTEN

Ich beabsichtige, Ihnen einen Teil meines Vermögens als eine freiwillige 
finanzielle Spende zu Ihnen zu geben, antworten Sie, um teilzunehmen, 
treten Sie bitte mit meiner privaten eMail in Verbindung, um weitere 
Einzelheiten zu erhalten
Wang Jianlin
Wanda Gruppe

Message #155 received at 628515@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Sean Whitton <spwhitton@spwhitton.name>

To: 628515@bugs.debian.org

Subject: Seeking seconds for patch to recommend verbose logs and define DEB_BUILD_OPTIONS=terse

Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 18:10:42 +0800

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

control: tag -1 +patch

Hello,

I've reviewed the discussion in #628515 and #680686, and it looks to me
that we have a consensus that package builds should be verbose by
default.  There are dissenting opinions, but debhelper has implemented
verbosity by default, and the other options require substantial work in
dpkg-buildpackage, sbuild and other tools -- work which is not being
done.

I am therefore seeking seconds for the following patch.  In seconding
this, please remember that to second something is not simply to say that
you agree with the change, but also to indicate agreement with my
judgement that the change reflects project consensus.

About the name: Raphael mentioned that dpkg supports
DEB_BUILD_OPTIONS=maintainer-build but I note that what he meant is that
the /dpkg source package/ supports this option in its rules file, not
that the /dpkg program/ pays it any attention.  Also, codesearch reveals
that the dpkg source package is unique in using the string
'maintainer-build'.  Let's standardise on the shorter 'terse'.

> diff --git a/policy/ch-source.rst b/policy/ch-source.rst
> index 9e7d79c..83721f5 100644
> --- a/policy/ch-source.rst
> +++ b/policy/ch-source.rst
> @@ -277,6 +277,13 @@ reproduce the same binary package, all required targets must be
>  non-interactive. It also follows that any target that these targets
>  depend on must also be non-interactive.
>
> +The package build should be as verbose as possible, except where the
> +``terse`` tag is included in ``DEB_BUILD_OPTIONS`` (see
> +:ref:`s-debianrules-options`:).  This means that ``debian/rules``
> +should pass to the commands it invokes options that cause them to
> +produce maximally verbose output.  For example, the build target
> +should pass ``--disable-silent-rules`` to any configure scripts.
> +
>  For packages in the main archive, no required targets may attempt
>  network access.
>
> @@ -505,6 +512,12 @@ The meaning of the following tags has been standardized:
>      times are long enough and the package build system is robust enough
>      to make supporting parallel builds worthwhile.
>
> +``terse``
> +    This tag means that the package build will be less verbose than
> +    default.  For example, ``debian/rules`` might pass options to the
> +    package's configure script that cause the compiler to produce less
> +    output.
> +
>  Unknown flags must be ignored by ``debian/rules``.
>
>  The following makefile snippet is an example of how one may implement

-- 
Sean Whitton

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Message #162 received at 628515@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Andrey Rahmatullin <wrar@debian.org>

To: Sean Whitton <spwhitton@spwhitton.name>, 628515@bugs.debian.org

Subject: Re: Bug#628515: Seeking seconds for patch to recommend verbose logs and define DEB_BUILD_OPTIONS=terse

Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 15:20:24 +0500

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

On Sun, Jul 22, 2018 at 06:10:42PM +0800, Sean Whitton wrote:
> > diff --git a/policy/ch-source.rst b/policy/ch-source.rst
> > index 9e7d79c..83721f5 100644
> > --- a/policy/ch-source.rst
> > +++ b/policy/ch-source.rst
> > @@ -277,6 +277,13 @@ reproduce the same binary package, all required targets must be
> >  non-interactive. It also follows that any target that these targets
> >  depend on must also be non-interactive.
> >
> > +The package build should be as verbose as possible, except where the
> > +``terse`` tag is included in ``DEB_BUILD_OPTIONS`` (see
> > +:ref:`s-debianrules-options`:).  This means that ``debian/rules``
> > +should pass to the commands it invokes options that cause them to
> > +produce maximally verbose output.  For example, the build target
> > +should pass ``--disable-silent-rules`` to any configure scripts.
> > +
> >  For packages in the main archive, no required targets may attempt
> >  network access.
> >
> > @@ -505,6 +512,12 @@ The meaning of the following tags has been standardized:
> >      times are long enough and the package build system is robust enough
> >      to make supporting parallel builds worthwhile.
> >
> > +``terse``
> > +    This tag means that the package build will be less verbose than
> > +    default.  For example, ``debian/rules`` might pass options to the
> > +    package's configure script that cause the compiler to produce less
> > +    output.
> > +
> >  Unknown flags must be ignored by ``debian/rules``.
> >
> >  The following makefile snippet is an example of how one may implement
Seconded.

-- 
WBR, wRAR

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Message #167 received at 628515@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: David Bremner <david@tethera.net>

To: Sean Whitton <spwhitton@spwhitton.name>, 628515@bugs.debian.org, 628515@bugs.debian.org

Subject: Re: Bug#628515: Seeking seconds for patch to recommend verbose logs and define DEB_BUILD_OPTIONS=terse

Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 18:44:13 +0800

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

Sean Whitton <spwhitton@spwhitton.name> writes:
>
> I am therefore seeking seconds for the following patch.  In seconding
> this, please remember that to second something is not simply to say that
> you agree with the change, but also to indicate agreement with my
> judgement that the change reflects project consensus.

seconded.

d

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Message #172 received at 628515@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Ian Jackson <ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk>

To: Sean Whitton <spwhitton@spwhitton.name>, 628515@bugs.debian.org

Subject: Re: Bug#628515: Seeking seconds for patch to recommend verbose logs and define DEB_BUILD_OPTIONS=terse

Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 22:58:07 +0100

Sean Whitton writes ("Bug#628515: Seeking seconds for patch to recommend verbose logs and define DEB_BUILD_OPTIONS=terse"):
> > +The package build should be as verbose as possible, except where the

Are you sure "as verbose as {+reasonably+} possible" would not be
better ?

Imagine a build that, oh, I don't know, was able to spit megabytes of
base-64-encoded binaries to its stderr, or something.  Obviously
enablig that is "not what we meant" here but it's the literal meaning
of the proposed text...

Ian.

Message #177 received at 628515@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Sean Whitton <spwhitton@spwhitton.name>

To: Ian Jackson <ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk>, 628515@bugs.debian.org

Cc: Andrey Rahmatullin <wrar@debian.org>, David Bremner <bremner@debian.org>

Subject: Re: Bug#628515: Seeking seconds for patch to recommend verbose logs and define DEB_BUILD_OPTIONS=terse

Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 07:48:48 +0800

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

Hello,

On Sun 22 Jul 2018 at 10:58PM +0100, Ian Jackson wrote:

> Are you sure "as verbose as {+reasonably+} possible" would not be
> better ?
>
> Imagine a build that, oh, I don't know, was able to spit megabytes of
> base-64-encoded binaries to its stderr, or something.  Obviously
> enablig that is "not what we meant" here but it's the literal meaning
> of the proposed text...

Thank you.  This occurred to me last night, but I couldn't come up with a
way to address the issue that was not rather cumbersome.

I think that the use of 'maximally' is fine given that the previous
sentence is now qualified with 'reasonably'.

Here is the revised patch; David and Andrey, hopefully you will renew
your seconds:

> diff --git a/policy/ch-source.rst b/policy/ch-source.rst
> index 9e7d79c..c35e994 100644
> --- a/policy/ch-source.rst
> +++ b/policy/ch-source.rst
> @@ -277,6 +277,13 @@ reproduce the same binary package, all required targets must be
>  non-interactive. It also follows that any target that these targets
>  depend on must also be non-interactive.
>
> +The package build should be as verbose as reasonably possible, except
> +where the ``terse`` tag is included in ``DEB_BUILD_OPTIONS`` (see
> +:ref:`s-debianrules-options`:).  This means that ``debian/rules``
> +should pass to the commands it invokes options that cause them to
> +produce maximally verbose output.  For example, the build target
> +should pass ``--disable-silent-rules`` to any configure scripts.
> +
>  For packages in the main archive, no required targets may attempt
>  network access.
>
> @@ -505,6 +512,12 @@ The meaning of the following tags has been standardized:
>      times are long enough and the package build system is robust enough
>      to make supporting parallel builds worthwhile.
>
> +``terse``
> +    This tag means that the package build will be less verbose than
> +    default.  For example, ``debian/rules`` might pass options to the
> +    package's configure script that cause the compiler to produce less
> +    output.
> +
>  Unknown flags must be ignored by ``debian/rules``.
>
>  The following makefile snippet is an example of how one may implement

-- 
Sean Whitton

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Message #182 received at 628515@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Ian Jackson <ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk>

To: Sean Whitton <spwhitton@spwhitton.name>, 628515@bugs.debian.org

Cc: Andrey Rahmatullin <wrar@debian.org>, David Bremner <bremner@debian.org>

Subject: Re: Bug#628515: Seeking seconds for patch to recommend verbose logs and define DEB_BUILD_OPTIONS=terse

Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 01:38:27 +0100

Sean Whitton writes ("Bug#628515: Seeking seconds for patch to recommend verbose logs and define DEB_BUILD_OPTIONS=terse"):
> I think that the use of 'maximally' is fine given that the previous
> sentence is now qualified with 'reasonably'.

Yes.

> Here is the revised patch; David and Andrey, hopefully you will renew
> your seconds:

LGTM.

Ian.

Message #187 received at 628515@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: David Bremner <bremner@debian.org>

To: Ian Jackson <ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk>, Sean Whitton <spwhitton@spwhitton.name>, 628515@bugs.debian.org

Cc: Andrey Rahmatullin <wrar@debian.org>

Subject: Re: Bug#628515: Seeking seconds for patch to recommend verbose logs and define DEB_BUILD_OPTIONS=terse

Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 08:58:37 +0800

Ian Jackson <ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk> writes:

> Sean Whitton writes ("Bug#628515: Seeking seconds for patch to recommend verbose logs and define DEB_BUILD_OPTIONS=terse"):
>> I think that the use of 'maximally' is fine given that the previous
>> sentence is now qualified with 'reasonably'.
>
> Yes.
>
>> Here is the revised patch; David and Andrey, hopefully you will renew
>> your seconds:
>
> LGTM.
>
> Ian.

Revised version seconded.

d

Message #194 received at 628515@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Andrey Rahmatullin <wrar@debian.org>

To: Sean Whitton <spwhitton@spwhitton.name>

Cc: Ian Jackson <ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk>, 628515@bugs.debian.org, David Bremner <bremner@debian.org>

Subject: Re: Bug#628515: Seeking seconds for patch to recommend verbose logs and define DEB_BUILD_OPTIONS=terse

Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 12:25:45 +0500

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 07:48:48AM +0800, Sean Whitton wrote:
> > diff --git a/policy/ch-source.rst b/policy/ch-source.rst
> > index 9e7d79c..c35e994 100644
> > --- a/policy/ch-source.rst
> > +++ b/policy/ch-source.rst
> > @@ -277,6 +277,13 @@ reproduce the same binary package, all required targets must be
> >  non-interactive. It also follows that any target that these targets
> >  depend on must also be non-interactive.
> >
> > +The package build should be as verbose as reasonably possible, except
> > +where the ``terse`` tag is included in ``DEB_BUILD_OPTIONS`` (see
> > +:ref:`s-debianrules-options`:).  This means that ``debian/rules``
> > +should pass to the commands it invokes options that cause them to
> > +produce maximally verbose output.  For example, the build target
> > +should pass ``--disable-silent-rules`` to any configure scripts.
> > +
> >  For packages in the main archive, no required targets may attempt
> >  network access.
> >
> > @@ -505,6 +512,12 @@ The meaning of the following tags has been standardized:
> >      times are long enough and the package build system is robust enough
> >      to make supporting parallel builds worthwhile.
> >
> > +``terse``
> > +    This tag means that the package build will be less verbose than
> > +    default.  For example, ``debian/rules`` might pass options to the
> > +    package's configure script that cause the compiler to produce less
> > +    output.
> > +
> >  Unknown flags must be ignored by ``debian/rules``.
> >
> >  The following makefile snippet is an example of how one may implement
Seconded too.

-- 
WBR, wRAR

[signature.asc (application/pgp-signature, inline)]

Message #199 received at 628515-close@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Sean Whitton <spwhitton@spwhitton.name>

To: 628515-close@bugs.debian.org

Subject: Bug#628515: fixed in debian-policy 4.2.0.0

Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2018 02:43:10 +0000

Source: debian-policy
Source-Version: 4.2.0.0

We believe that the bug you reported is fixed in the latest version of
debian-policy, which is due to be installed in the Debian FTP archive.

A summary of the changes between this version and the previous one is
attached.

Thank you for reporting the bug, which will now be closed.  If you
have further comments please address them to 628515@bugs.debian.org,
and the maintainer will reopen the bug report if appropriate.

Debian distribution maintenance software
pp.
Sean Whitton <spwhitton@spwhitton.name> (supplier of updated debian-policy package)

(This message was generated automatically at their request; if you
believe that there is a problem with it please contact the archive
administrators by mailing ftpmaster@ftp-master.debian.org)


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

Format: 1.8
Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2018 09:43:33 +0800
Source: debian-policy
Binary: debian-policy
Architecture: source
Version: 4.2.0.0
Distribution: unstable
Urgency: medium
Maintainer: Debian Policy Editors <debian-policy@lists.debian.org>
Changed-By: Sean Whitton <spwhitton@spwhitton.name>
Description:
 debian-policy - Debian Policy Manual and related documents
Closes: 459427 628515 813471 873456 876075 879048 886258
Changes:
 debian-policy (4.2.0.0) unstable; urgency=medium
 .
   * Policy: Standards-Version field is mandatory
     Wording: Sean Whitton <spwhitton@spwhitton.name>
     Seconded: Holger Levsen <holger@layer-acht.org>
     Seconded: Bill Allombert <ballombe@debian.org>
     Closes: #886258
   * Policy: Builds should be verbose & 'terse' DEB_BUILD_OPTIONS flag
     Wording: Sean Whitton <spwhitton@spwhitton.name>
     Seconded: Andrey Rahmatullin <wrar@debian.org>
     Seconded: David Bremner <bremner@debian.org>
     Seconded: Ian Jackson <ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk>
     Closes: #628515
   * Policy: Required targets may attempt some network access
     Wording: Sean Whitton <spwhitton@spwhitton.name>
     Seconded: David Bremner <bremner@debian.org>
     Seconded: Osamu Aoki <osamu@debian.org>
     Seconded: Niels Thykier <niels@thykier.net>
     Closes: #813471
   * Policy: Installation of upstream release notes and changelogs
     Wording: Sean Whitton <spwhitton@spwhitton.name>
     Seconded: Holger Levsen <holger@layer-acht.org>
     Seconded: Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org>
     Seconded: David Bremner <bremner@debian.org>
     Closes: #459427
 .
   * Add a third paragraph to 1.3.3 encouraging the submission of patches
     to document new techniques sooner rather than later, while making it
     clear that updating the Policy Manual should never block making other
     improvements to Debian.
   * Tweak wording in a sentence in 1.1.
   * Add a note to the README about why salsa merge requests are turned off.
 .
   * Stop installing policy-1.html because Sphinx's singlehtml output is
     too buggy at present (Closes: #873456, #876075, #879048).
     See also #877367.  Thanks to Paul Wise for switching the web mirrors
     away from policy-1.html.
 .
   * license-count: improve regex for some Creative Commons licenses.
     Thanks Jonathan Dowland for the patch.
   * Fix some indentation in ch-archive.rst.
     Thanks Hideki Yamane for the patch.
Checksums-Sha1:
 249930acf77fdeed3af5e9594ecf07d4bfe754d6 2001 debian-policy_4.2.0.0.dsc
 3dbbdfba9560e36084cffe04b781de8070cccaaf 462264 debian-policy_4.2.0.0.tar.xz
Checksums-Sha256:
 f7301ef0bf117c1bbcb06f53abc68a13788f26f21693a15726c4b34e4707ed01 2001 debian-policy_4.2.0.0.dsc
 ddb0d25d884d50784a0b1703ce6f17cadd4644c97c56ee30ce2205dd490188ea 462264 debian-policy_4.2.0.0.tar.xz
Files:
 81b49a008902e875a5a6866d4d776c77 2001 doc optional debian-policy_4.2.0.0.dsc
 eab84ea8b21d72b76303299c3296af46 462264 doc optional debian-policy_4.2.0.0.tar.xz

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