Debian Bug report logs - #604959
xdgutils: please introduce (sane) xdg-terminal

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Package: xdg-utils; Maintainer for xdg-utils is Per Olofsson <pelle@debian.org>; Source for xdg-utils is src:xdg-utils.

Reported by: Simon Richter <sjr@debian.org>

Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 23:18:04 UTC

Severity: wishlist

Tags: upstream

Found in version xdg-utils/1.0.2+cvs20100307-3

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Report forwarded to debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org, <debian-devel@lists.debian.org>:
Bug#348775; Package general. Full text and rfc822 format available.

Acknowledgement sent to Simon Richter <sjr@debian.org>:
New Bug report received and forwarded. Copy sent to <debian-devel@lists.debian.org>. Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #5 received at submit@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox):

From: Simon Richter <sjr@debian.org>
To: Debian Bug Tracking System <submit@bugs.debian.org>
Subject: general: terminal emulators' alternatives settings' priorities annoy users
Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 23:55:17 +0100
Package: general
Severity: normal

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Hi,

The problem at hand is the proposed (and implemented) solution for
http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=332223 .

I'm unconvinced that bumping the priority on the other terminal
emulators is an adequate solution, hence I'm opening this "general" bug
for discussion on how to reflect individual users' choices properly.

It has been suggested on #debian-devel that maybe creating a per-user
~/bin with its own alternatives links might be an option, however there
needs to be a fallback mechanism in case the currently selected option
goes away. Perhaps it might be an idea to have a wrapper binary that
will fall back on the highest precedence alternative in this case, or
optionally show a menu (gee, there may be multiple wrapper programs, so
there needs to be a mechanism to select them...NOT!).

This message shall serve as a starting point for discussion. Please CC
the bug in replies.

   Simon

- -- System Information:
Debian Release: testing/unstable
  APT prefers unstable
  APT policy: (500, 'unstable'), (50, 'experimental')
Architecture: powerpc (ppc)
Shell:  /bin/sh linked to /bin/bash
Kernel: Linux 2.6.15-1-powerpc
Locale: LANG=de_DE.UTF-8, LC_CTYPE=ja_JP.UTF-8 (charmap=UTF-8)

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Information forwarded to debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org, <debian-devel@lists.debian.org>:
Bug#348775; Package general. Full text and rfc822 format available.

Acknowledgement sent to Loïc Minier <lool@dooz.org>:
Extra info received and forwarded to list. Copy sent to <debian-devel@lists.debian.org>. Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #10 received at 348775@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox):

From: Loïc Minier <lool@dooz.org>
To: Simon Richter <sjr@debian.org>, 348775@bugs.debian.org
Subject: Re: Bug#348775: general: terminal emulators' alternatives settings' priorities annoy users
Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 18:01:19 +0100
        Hi,

On Wed, Jan 18, 2006, Simon Richter wrote:
> I'm unconvinced that bumping the priority on the other terminal
> emulators is an adequate solution, hence I'm opening this "general" bug
> for discussion on how to reflect individual users' choices properly.

 We had a similar problem for GNOME recently, but not on the terminal
 emulator front, it was with web browsers.

 Rationale: you don't want to see konqueror launched as the default
 browser in GNOME but you want GNOME to be integrated with Debian.


 The www-browser and x-www-browser alternatives provide an useful mean
 for classing browsers system-wide with a priority.
 The sensible-browser script is an useful entry point to launch the most
 suitable browser from the current environment.  sensible-browser will
 use the environment to guess what browser or alternative to launch
 (browsers in $BROWSER, x-www-browser, www-browser in xterm,
 www-browser).

 It is simple to extend this scheme with:
 - gnome-www-browser for browsers with GNOME support (epiphany-browser,
   galeon, firefox-gnome-support, ...)
 - check for $DISPLAY and eg. $GNOME_DESKTOP_SESSION_ID in
   sensible-browser to decide to launch gnome-www-browser or default to
   x-www-browser

 These changes were commited in galeon and epiphany's SVN, the changes
 to sensible-browser and to firefox remain to be done.

 Of course, this could be followed for KDE too.

 Simon, would this help with the problem you mentionned?

   Cheers,

-- 
Loïc Minier <lool@dooz.org>
Current Earth status:   NOT DESTROYED



Information forwarded to debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org, <debian-devel@lists.debian.org>:
Bug#348775; Package general. Full text and rfc822 format available.

Acknowledgement sent to Simon Richter <sjr@debian.org>:
Extra info received and forwarded to list. Copy sent to <debian-devel@lists.debian.org>. Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #15 received at 348775@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox):

From: Simon Richter <sjr@debian.org>
To: Loïc Minier <lool@dooz.org>
Cc: 348775@bugs.debian.org, List Debian devel <debian-devel@lists.debian.org>
Subject: Re: Bug#348775: general: terminal emulators' alternatives settings' priorities annoy users
Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 19:01:22 +0100
[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]
Hello,

Loïc Minier wrote:

>  Rationale: you don't want to see konqueror launched as the default
>  browser in GNOME but you want GNOME to be integrated with Debian.

Ah, I remember that one as well.

>  It is simple to extend this scheme with:
>  - gnome-www-browser for browsers with GNOME support (epiphany-browser,
>    galeon, firefox-gnome-support, ...)

And GNOME would by default be configured to launch gnome-www-browser,
thus solving the problem for GNOME users who do not set any other
browser in gnomecc. The question for me would be whether this affects 
people who use neither GNOME nor KDE (the browsers optimized for a 
specific environment could then be demoted to some lower priority than 
the non-specific ones, perhaps?)

>  - check for $DISPLAY and eg. $GNOME_DESKTOP_SESSION_ID in
>    sensible-browser to decide to launch gnome-www-browser or default to
>    x-www-browser

Sounds good.

>  These changes were commited in galeon and epiphany's SVN, the changes
>  to sensible-browser and to firefox remain to be done.

You mean, that they now register as an alternative for gnome-www-browser?

>  Of course, this could be followed for KDE too.

It should not be difficult to get that done. I had somehow expected that 
the bug report and any followups are forwarded to -devel to spark 
discussion, so I'm explicitly forwarding it there.

>  Simon, would this help with the problem you mentionned?

Not entirely, since it isn't limited to browsers or terminals. Many 
users have personal preferences about things that are currently handled 
through the alternatives system, and the sysadmin's choice (or 
non-choice, as in the "bumping priorities" scenario) will affect them.

For example, everytime a GNOME or KDE application launches, a lot of 
dotfiles will be created for me, so I'd like to avoid this as much as 
possible as I will only have to clean up afterwards.

   Simon

[signature.asc (application/pgp-signature, attachment)]

Information forwarded to debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org, <debian-devel@lists.debian.org>:
Bug#348775; Package general. Full text and rfc822 format available.

Acknowledgement sent to Loïc Minier <lool+debian@via.ecp.fr>:
Extra info received and forwarded to list. Copy sent to <debian-devel@lists.debian.org>. Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #20 received at 348775@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox):

From: Loïc Minier <lool+debian@via.ecp.fr>
To: Simon Richter <sjr@debian.org>
Cc: 348775@bugs.debian.org
Subject: Re: Bug#348775: general: terminal emulators' alternatives settings' priorities annoy users
Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 20:38:49 +0100
        Hi,

On Fri, Jan 20, 2006, Simon Richter wrote:
> And GNOME would by default be configured to launch gnome-www-browser,
> thus solving the problem for GNOME users who do not set any other
> browser in gnomecc. The question for me would be whether this affects 
> people who use neither GNOME nor KDE (the browsers optimized for a 
> specific environment could then be demoted to some lower priority than 
> the non-specific ones, perhaps?)

 GNOME could then be configured to launch either sensible-browser or
 gnome-www-browser (my preference would go to sensible-browser because
 it makes sense system-wide, not only under GNOME).

 I'm not sure about demoting the priorities.  I think priorities should
 decrease with the number of users because the more specific a package
 is (in terms of number of users) the more likely you want it to be the
 default, but I suppose there's no general rule, and it's difficult to
 measure the importance of launching a browser matching the current
 environment with respect to its popularity.

> > These changes were commited in galeon and epiphany's SVN, the changes
> > to sensible-browser and to firefox remain to be done.
> You mean, that they now register as an alternative for gnome-www-browser?

 epiphany-browser and galeon do, yes.

> > Of course, this could be followed for KDE too.
> It should not be difficult to get that done. I had somehow expected that 
> the bug report and any followups are forwarded to -devel to spark 
> discussion, so I'm explicitly forwarding it there.

 My response went through debian-devel when I Cc: the bug report, so
 I'm continuing this way.

> Not entirely, since it isn't limited to browsers or terminals. Many 
> users have personal preferences about things that are currently handled 
> through the alternatives system, and the sysadmin's choice (or 
> non-choice, as in the "bumping priorities" scenario) will affect them.

 Yes.  However, I consider that the system command sensible-browser is
 user-configurable (via $BROWSER) and the GNOME environment is
 user-configurable (via gconf settings), so for the browser choice front
 system-wide and in GNOME, I'm satisfied with the way of things.

> For example, everytime a GNOME or KDE application launches, a lot of 
> dotfiles will be created for me, so I'd like to avoid this as much as 
> possible as I will only have to clean up afterwards.

 Hmm, this sounds like a whole new class of problems.

   Cheers,
-- 
Loïc Minier <lool@dooz.org>
Current Earth status:   NOT DESTROYED



Severity set to `wishlist' from `normal' Request was from Holger Levsen <holger@layer-acht.org> to control@bugs.debian.org. (Fri, 12 Sep 2008 23:54:03 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Information forwarded to debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org, debian-devel@lists.debian.org:
Bug#348775; Package general. (Wed, 24 Nov 2010 17:27:03 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Acknowledgement sent to Jonathan Nieder <jrnieder@gmail.com>:
Extra info received and forwarded to list. Copy sent to debian-devel@lists.debian.org. (Wed, 24 Nov 2010 17:27:03 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #27 received at 348775@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox):

From: Jonathan Nieder <jrnieder@gmail.com>
To: 348775@bugs.debian.org
Cc: Simon Richter <sjr@debian.org>
Subject: Re: general: terminal emulators' alternatives settings' priorities annoy users
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2010 11:24:55 -0600
Hi,

Simon Richter wrote:

> The problem at hand is the proposed (and implemented) solution for
> http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=332223 .
[lxterm having higher priority than konsole on KDE systems]
>
> I'm unconvinced that bumping the priority on the other terminal
> emulators is an adequate solution, hence I'm opening this "general" bug
> for discussion on how to reflect individual users' choices properly.
>
> It has been suggested on #debian-devel that maybe creating a per-user
> ~/bin with its own alternatives links might be an option, however there
> needs to be a fallback mechanism in case the currently selected option
> goes away.

To make this concrete:

. unlike browsers with $BROWSER and desktop-specific settings, there
  is no standard, cross-distro way to make a user-specific choice of
  terminal

. apps integrated into Debian can and should be using
  x-terminal-emulator, without an explicit "/usr/bin/", as hinted at
  by policy §6.1 "Introduction to package maintainer scripts"

. therefore users can put a script implementing whatever policy they
  choose in ~/bin/x-terminal-emulator, but:

   1. that requires more know-how than many users have
   2. applications not integrated into Debian would just use xterm
      anyway, which is not so great.

To solve (1): an interested person could make an app that installs an
easily configurable ~/bin/x-terminal-emulator script.  This seems
like a rfp rather than a general bug, if anything.

To solve (2): one could introduce a TERMINAL environment variable
analogous to MAILER and implement xdg-terminal that reads it.  Please
clone this bug and assign to xdg-utils if interested.

Sensible?
Jonathan




Information forwarded to debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org, debian-devel@lists.debian.org:
Bug#348775; Package general. (Thu, 25 Nov 2010 01:39:06 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Acknowledgement sent to Paul Wise <pabs@debian.org>:
Extra info received and forwarded to list. Copy sent to debian-devel@lists.debian.org. (Thu, 25 Nov 2010 01:39:06 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #32 received at 348775@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox):

From: Paul Wise <pabs@debian.org>
To: Jonathan Nieder <jrnieder@gmail.com>, 348775@bugs.debian.org
Cc: Simon Richter <sjr@debian.org>
Subject: Re: Bug#348775: general: terminal emulators' alternatives settings' priorities annoy users
Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2010 09:36:25 +0800
On Thu, Nov 25, 2010 at 1:24 AM, Jonathan Nieder <jrnieder@gmail.com> wrote:

> . unlike browsers with $BROWSER and desktop-specific settings, there
>  is no standard, cross-distro way to make a user-specific choice of
>  terminal
...
> To solve (2): one could introduce a TERMINAL environment variable
> analogous to MAILER and implement xdg-terminal that reads it.  Please
> clone this bug and assign to xdg-utils if interested.

In xdg-utils CVS there is an xdg-terminal script, not sure why that
isn't available in Debian yet:

http://webcvs.freedesktop.org/portland/portland/xdg-utils/scripts/xdg-terminal.in?revision=HEAD&view=markup
http://webcvs.freedesktop.org/portland/portland/xdg-utils/scripts/xdg-terminal?revision=HEAD&view=markup

-- 
bye,
pabs

http://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise




Information forwarded to debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org, debian-devel@lists.debian.org:
Bug#348775; Package general. (Thu, 25 Nov 2010 18:48:03 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Acknowledgement sent to Jonathan Nieder <jrnieder@gmail.com>:
Extra info received and forwarded to list. Copy sent to debian-devel@lists.debian.org. (Thu, 25 Nov 2010 18:48:03 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #37 received at 348775@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox):

From: Jonathan Nieder <jrnieder@gmail.com>
To: 348775@bugs.debian.org, xdg-utils@packages.debian.org
Cc: Simon Richter <sjr@debian.org>
Subject: Re: Bug#348775: general: terminal emulators' alternatives settings' priorities annoy users
Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2010 12:43:55 -0600
clone 348775 -1
reassign -1 xdg-utils 1.0.2+cvs20100307-3
retitle xdg-utils please introduce (sane) xdg-terminal
tags -1 + upstream
quit

Paul Wise wrote:

> In xdg-utils CVS there is an xdg-terminal script, not sure why that
> isn't available in Debian yet:

When no desktop is in use, it uses $TERM to choose a terminal,
so on this machine it would end up trying to run 'linux'. :)
Using $TERMINAL would fix that, I think.




Bug 348775 cloned as bug 604959. Request was from Jonathan Nieder <jrnieder@gmail.com> to control@bugs.debian.org. (Thu, 25 Nov 2010 18:48:05 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Bug reassigned from package 'general' to 'xdg-utils'. Request was from Jonathan Nieder <jrnieder@gmail.com> to control@bugs.debian.org. (Thu, 25 Nov 2010 18:48:07 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Bug Marked as found in versions xdg-utils/1.0.2+cvs20100307-3. Request was from Jonathan Nieder <jrnieder@gmail.com> to control@bugs.debian.org. (Thu, 25 Nov 2010 18:48:08 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Added tag(s) upstream. Request was from Jonathan Nieder <jrnieder@gmail.com> to control@bugs.debian.org. (Thu, 25 Nov 2010 18:48:08 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Changed Bug title to 'xdgutils: please introduce (sane) xdg-terminal' from 'general: terminal emulators' alternatives settings' priorities annoy users' Request was from Jonathan Nieder <jrnieder@gmail.com> to control@bugs.debian.org. (Thu, 25 Nov 2010 18:51:05 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

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