Debian Bug report logs - #591705
maint-guide: Please suggest joining a team

Package: maint-guide; Maintainer for maint-guide is Osamu Aoki <osamu@debian.org>; Source for maint-guide is src:maint-guide.

Reported by: Ansgar Burchardt <ansgar@2008.43-1.org>

Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2010 22:24:01 UTC

Severity: normal

Done: Osamu Aoki <osamu@debian.org>

Bug is archived. No further changes may be made.

Toggle useless messages

View this report as an mbox folder, status mbox, maintainer mbox


Report forwarded to debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org, Osamu Aoki <osamu@debian.org>:
Bug#591705; Package maint-guide. (Wed, 04 Aug 2010 22:24:04 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #3 received at submit@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox):

From: Ansgar Burchardt <ansgar@2008.43-1.org>
To: Debian Bug Tracking System <submit@bugs.debian.org>
Subject: maint-guide: Please suggest joining a team
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2010 07:20:54 +0900
Package: maint-guide
Severity: normal

Hi,

often new contributors are discouraged as they cannot find a sponsor
easily.  Joining a related packaging team makes it in my experience much
easier to do so and is often recommended.  However, the New Maintainers
Guide does not mention teams at all.

Please include a link to [1] and suggest to ask joining a packaging team
somewhere.  Maybe in "1.3 Official Debian Developer" and "1.4 Where to
ask for help" or even add an extra section in the first chapter.

Regards,
Ansgar




Information forwarded to debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org, Osamu Aoki <osamu@debian.org>:
Bug#591705; Package maint-guide. (Wed, 04 Aug 2010 22:48:06 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Acknowledgement sent to Ansgar Burchardt <ansgar@2008.43-1.org>:
Extra info received and forwarded to list. Copy sent to Osamu Aoki <osamu@debian.org>. (Wed, 04 Aug 2010 22:48:06 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #8 received at 591705@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox):

From: Ansgar Burchardt <ansgar@2008.43-1.org>
To: 591705@bugs.debian.org
Subject: Re: maint-guide: Please suggest joining a team
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2010 07:45:41 +0900
Ansgar Burchardt <ansgar@2008.43-1.org> writes:

> Please include a link to [1] and suggest to ask joining a packaging team
> somewhere.  Maybe in "1.3 Official Debian Developer" and "1.4 Where to
> ask for help" or even add an extra section in the first chapter.

[1] <http://wiki.debian.org/Teams#Packagingteams>

A first try at wording:

  Debian has various <a>packaging teams</a>.  Please consider joining
  those related to your work.  Doing so will make it easier for you to
  find sponsors to upload your packages to Debian and having people
  maintaining similar software to ask for help.  Working on other
  packages maintained by the team will also be appreciated.

In my opinion having teams also helps to get faster responses in general
and distribute the workload to more people; a single maintainer might be
busy with other work, resulting in longer delays.  Maybe this could be
included somehow as well?  I really think most packages should be
maintained by a team :-)

Regards,
Ansgar




Information forwarded to debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org:
Bug#591705; Package maint-guide. (Thu, 05 Aug 2010 12:57:02 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Acknowledgement sent to Osamu Aoki <osamu@debian.org>:
Extra info received and forwarded to list. (Thu, 05 Aug 2010 12:57:02 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #13 received at 591705@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox):

From: Osamu Aoki <osamu@debian.org>
To: Ansgar Burchardt <ansgar@2008.43-1.org>, 591705@bugs.debian.org
Cc: debian-mentors@lists.debian.org
Subject: Re: Bug#591705: maint-guide: Please suggest joining a team
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2010 21:55:22 +0900
Hi,

NM guide updates was done basically without ML posting until recently
since it was mostly factual fixes and BTS was good enough.

I just added RFA related thing in the last updates.  I realize, it is
about time to get more exposure :-)

On Thu, Aug 05, 2010 at 07:45:41AM +0900, Ansgar Burchardt wrote:
> Ansgar Burchardt <ansgar@2008.43-1.org> writes:
> 
> > Please include a link to [1] and suggest to ask joining a packaging team
> > somewhere.  Maybe in "1.3 Official Debian Developer" and "1.4 Where to
> > ask for help" or even add an extra section in the first chapter.
> 
> [1] <http://wiki.debian.org/Teams#Packagingteams>
> 
> A first try at wording:
> 
>   Debian has various <a>packaging teams</a>.  Please consider joining
>   those related to your work.  Doing so will make it easier for you to
>   find sponsors to upload your packages to Debian and having people
>   maintaining similar software to ask for help.  Working on other
>   packages maintained by the team will also be appreciated.
> 
> In my opinion having teams also helps to get faster responses in general
> and distribute the workload to more people; a single maintainer might be
> busy with other work, resultfing in longer delays.  Maybe this could be
> included somehow as well?  I really think most packages should be
> maintained by a team :-)

I basically agree to include contents along what has been suggested.

Questions are:
1. Where do we put this?
2. Is this appropriate level of support to the TEAM thing because there
   are many core packages in solo maintainer.  (This is Debian and not
   Ubuntu.)
3. Can we come up with a bit more neutral and shorter text?

(I like TEAM thing personally but I am not quite sure putting strong
preference on TEAM over SOLO in this document id appropriate or not)

Osamu





Information forwarded to debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org, Osamu Aoki <osamu@debian.org>:
Bug#591705; Package maint-guide. (Thu, 05 Aug 2010 14:21:03 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Acknowledgement sent to gregor herrmann <gregoa@debian.org>:
Extra info received and forwarded to list. Copy sent to Osamu Aoki <osamu@debian.org>. (Thu, 05 Aug 2010 14:21:03 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #18 received at 591705@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox):

From: gregor herrmann <gregoa@debian.org>
To: 591705@bugs.debian.org
Subject: Re: Bug#591705: maint-guide: Please suggest joining a team
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2010 10:18:11 -0400
[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]
On Thu, 05 Aug 2010 21:55:22 +0900, Osamu Aoki wrote:

> > [1] <http://wiki.debian.org/Teams#Packagingteams>
> > 
> > A first try at wording:
> > 
> >   Debian has various <a>packaging teams</a>.  Please consider joining
> >   those related to your work.  Doing so will make it easier for you to
> >   find sponsors to upload your packages to Debian and having people
> >   maintaining similar software to ask for help.  Working on other
> >   packages maintained by the team will also be appreciated.

> Questions are:
> 1. Where do we put this?
> 2. Is this appropriate level of support to the TEAM thing because there
>    are many core packages in solo maintainer.  (This is Debian and not
>    Ubuntu.)
> 3. Can we come up with a bit more neutral and shorter text?
> 
> (I like TEAM thing personally but I am not quite sure putting strong
> preference on TEAM over SOLO in this document id appropriate or not)

I think adding a recommendation to join existing packaging teams is a
good and rather uncontroversial idea.
Ansgar's proposal doesn't say "team maintainance is always better" or
"you have to join a team" but merely states an advantage. - Therefore
I'd just take it :)

Cheers,
gregor
 
-- 
 .''`.   http://info.comodo.priv.at/ -- GPG key IDs: 0x8649AA06, 0x00F3CFE4
 : :' :  Debian GNU/Linux user, admin, & developer - http://www.debian.org/
 `. `'   Member of VIBE!AT & SPI, fellow of Free Software Foundation Europe
   `-    BOFH excuse #211:  Lightning strikes. 
[signature.asc (application/pgp-signature, inline)]

Information forwarded to debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org:
Bug#591705; Package maint-guide. (Thu, 05 Aug 2010 15:48:05 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Acknowledgement sent to Osamu Aoki <osamu@debian.org>:
Extra info received and forwarded to list. (Thu, 05 Aug 2010 15:48:05 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #23 received at 591705@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox):

From: Osamu Aoki <osamu@debian.org>
To: Nick Gnat <nickgnat@gmail.com>, 591705@bugs.debian.org
Cc: debian-mentors@lists.debian.org
Subject: Re: Bug#591705: maint-guide: Please suggest joining a team
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2010 00:46:31 +0900
Hi,

In order to minimize translation breakage, it is best done by adding a
new paragraph.

On Thu, Aug 05, 2010 at 10:33:38AM -0400, Nick Gnat wrote:
> Here's a quick stab at shortening the wording:

Thanks.

> "If you are interested in packaging a particular type of software (e.g.
> games, perl modules, or KDE apps), it may be beneficial to join one of
> Debian's <a>packaging teams</a>. They'll be able to provide specific help
> for any packaging problems you may have, and will be far more likely than
> other developers to sponsor your package."

Example of team is good idea.

I see you are thinking mentoring by other team member...  this is one
aspect.  I was expecting shared VCS where new people can work part of
project etc.  I think we should not make people expect too much help.
Volunteer project is mostly about selfleaning.

> I would put it in 1.4 "Where to ask for help," so that it seems more
> neutral, and something that could really benefit a new maintainer, but not
> something they should feel obligated to do.

"Where to ask for help" is for people needeing help.  Your text fits
better there but I was thinking a bit different tone.

> Sorry for the unsolicited opinion, but I've been reading the New
> Maintainer's guide lately. For what it's worth, I'm always happy to help
> with phrasing, since I'm a native English speaker, and have a lot of editing
> experience.

Please send me typo fixes when ever you find them.

> On Thu, Aug 5, 2010 at 8:55 AM, Osamu Aoki <osamu@debian.org> wrote:
...
> > On Thu, Aug 05, 2010 at 07:45:41AM +0900, Ansgar Burchardt wrote:
> > > Ansgar Burchardt <ansgar@2008.43-1.org> writes:
...
> > > > Please include a link to [1] and suggest to ask joining a packaging
> > team
> > > > somewhere.  Maybe in "1.3 Official Debian Developer" and "1.4 Where to
> > > > ask for help" or even add an extra section in the first chapter.

I should have read this carefully.  "add an extra section"! between 1.3
and 1.4 seems better idea.  Something like a new "1.4 packaging team".

> > >   Debian has various <a>packaging teams</a>.  Please consider joining
> > >   those related to your work.  

Do not they usually have common VCS where you can work together?

> > >   Doing so will make it easier for you to
> > >   find sponsors to upload your packages to Debian and having people
> > >   maintaining similar software to ask for help.  Working on other
> > >   packages maintained by the team will also be appreciated.

This proposal have more positive attitude toward contribution.
I think the last part is most important and along what has been added to
2.1.   Anyway ... I am thinking ...

<section>Packaging teams

Debian has various <url id="http://wiki.debian.org/Teams#Packagingteams" name="packaging teams">.  
If you are interested in packaging a particular type of software (e.g.
games, perl modules, GNOME apps, or KDE apps), it may be beneficial to
join one meant for them.  

They usually have common VCS for packages. Contributing to packages on
such VCS gives you opportunity to contribute without having full
scope of knowledge needed to be a maintainer.  This is good learning
experience and will build your credibility among people with the same
kind of interest on packages and makes it more likely to find sponsors
of your package when you need them.

> > > In my opinion having teams also helps to get faster responses in general
> > > and distribute the workload to more people; a single maintainer might be
> > > busy with other work, resultfing in longer delays.  Maybe this could be
> > > included somehow as well?  I really think most packages should be
> > > maintained by a team :-)

I now realize that this part was not meant for inclusion to NM guide.
So the proposed text was neutral.

Good night 

Osamu




Information forwarded to debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org, Osamu Aoki <osamu@debian.org>:
Bug#591705; Package maint-guide. (Thu, 05 Aug 2010 16:27:04 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Acknowledgement sent to Nick Gnat <nickgnat@gmail.com>:
Extra info received and forwarded to list. Copy sent to Osamu Aoki <osamu@debian.org>. (Thu, 05 Aug 2010 16:27:04 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #28 received at 591705@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox):

From: Nick Gnat <nickgnat@gmail.com>
To: 591705@bugs.debian.org, debian-mentors@lists.debian.org
Subject: Re: Bug#591705: maint-guide: Please suggest joining a team
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2010 12:23:47 -0400
[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]
Hi,

That was meant to be a new paragraph, I just didn't demonstrate it well.

On Thu, Aug 5, 2010 at 11:46 AM, Osamu Aoki <osamu@debian.org> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> In order to minimize translation breakage, it is best done by adding a
> new paragraph.
>
> On Thu, Aug 05, 2010 at 10:33:38AM -0400, Nick Gnat wrote:
> > Here's a quick stab at shortening the wording:
>
> Thanks.
>
> > "If you are interested in packaging a particular type of software (e.g.
> > games, perl modules, or KDE apps), it may be beneficial to join one of
> > Debian's <a>packaging teams</a>. They'll be able to provide specific help
> > for any packaging problems you may have, and will be far more likely than
> > other developers to sponsor your package."
>
> Example of team is good idea.
>
> I see you are thinking mentoring by other team member...  this is one
> aspect.  I was expecting shared VCS where new people can work part of
> project etc.  I think we should not make people expect too much help.
> Volunteer project is mostly about selfleaning.
>

Well, I was thinking that too, I was just trying to phrase it in a way that
had more appeal to new developers, and keep it short.

To add that aspect, perhaps:
<p>If you are interested in packaging a particular type of software (e.g.
games, perl modules, or KDE apps), it may be beneficial to join one of
Debian's <a>packaging teams</a>. Within them, you'll be able to
collaboratively develop and maintain packages (through a shared VCS)
alongside more experienced developers who share a common interest. This
provides the team with more manpower, and provides you with both an
excellent learning experience and an opportunity to contribute without
possessing the full scope of knowledge required to maintain a package by
yourself. Furthermore, if you contribute, experienced developers in the team
will be much more likely to sponsor your packages."

A little longer, but I think it puts more emphasis on collaboration, while
lowering expectations on getting help.

> I would put it in 1.4 "Where to ask for help," so that it seems more
> > neutral, and something that could really benefit a new maintainer, but
> not
> > something they should feel obligated to do.
>
> "Where to ask for help" is for people needeing help.  Your text fits
> better there but I was thinking a bit different tone.
>

Yeah, with the revised text, maybe somewhere else fits better


>
> > Sorry for the unsolicited opinion, but I've been reading the New
> > Maintainer's guide lately. For what it's worth, I'm always happy to help
> > with phrasing, since I'm a native English speaker, and have a lot of
> editing
> > experience.
>
> Please send me typo fixes when ever you find them.
>

What is the best form for you to receive them in?  Patches against the svn
sgml? Would you like revisions that (in my estimation) increase the clarity
of the text, or just typo corrections?

>
> > On Thu, Aug 5, 2010 at 8:55 AM, Osamu Aoki <osamu@debian.org> wrote:
> ...
> > > On Thu, Aug 05, 2010 at 07:45:41AM +0900, Ansgar Burchardt wrote:
> > > > Ansgar Burchardt <ansgar@2008.43-1.org> writes:
> ...
> > > > > Please include a link to [1] and suggest to ask joining a packaging
> > > team
> > > > > somewhere.  Maybe in "1.3 Official Debian Developer" and "1.4 Where
> to
> > > > > ask for help" or even add an extra section in the first chapter.
>
> I should have read this carefully.  "add an extra section"! between 1.3
> and 1.4 seems better idea.  Something like a new "1.4 packaging team".
>
> > > >   Debian has various <a>packaging teams</a>.  Please consider joining
> > > >   those related to your work.
>
> Do not they usually have common VCS where you can work together?
>
> > > >   Doing so will make it easier for you to
> > > >   find sponsors to upload your packages to Debian and having people
> > > >   maintaining similar software to ask for help.  Working on other
> > > >   packages maintained by the team will also be appreciated.
>
> This proposal have more positive attitude toward contribution.
> I think the last part is most important and along what has been added to
> 2.1.   Anyway ... I am thinking ...
>
> <section>Packaging teams
>
> Debian has various <url id="http://wiki.debian.org/Teams#Packagingteams"
> name="packaging teams">.
> If you are interested in packaging a particular type of software (e.g.
> games, perl modules, GNOME apps, or KDE apps), it may be beneficial to
> join one meant for them.
>
> They usually have common VCS for packages. Contributing to packages on
> such VCS gives you opportunity to contribute without having full
> scope of knowledge needed to be a maintainer.  This is good learning
> experience and will build your credibility among people with the same
> kind of interest on packages and makes it more likely to find sponsors
> of your package when you need them.
>
> > > > In my opinion having teams also helps to get faster responses in
> general
> > > > and distribute the workload to more people; a single maintainer might
> be
> > > > busy with other work, resultfing in longer delays.  Maybe this could
> be
> > > > included somehow as well?  I really think most packages should be
> > > > maintained by a team :-)
>
> I now realize that this part was not meant for inclusion to NM guide.
> So the proposed text was neutral.
>

> Good night
>

Good night (except it's just noon here),

>
> Osamu
>

Nick



-- 
Blog: coderschi.wordpress.com
Twitter: twitter.com/nickgnat
Facebook: facebook.com/nickgnat
[Message part 2 (text/html, inline)]

Reply sent to Osamu Aoki <osamu@debian.org>:
You have taken responsibility. (Sat, 28 Aug 2010 09:27:13 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Notification sent to Ansgar Burchardt <ansgar@2008.43-1.org>:
Bug acknowledged by developer. (Sat, 28 Aug 2010 09:27:13 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #33 received at 591705-done@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox):

From: Osamu Aoki <osamu@debian.org>
To: 591705-done@bugs.debian.org
Subject: joining a team ...
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2010 18:23:47 +0900
Hi,

I had time think this a bit.

You know maint-guide is not the place to document all information for DD
wannabes.  This kind of attitude in compiling such titorial will cause
negative impacts.   How to get involved should not be the focus of this
document.

There are enough hints already there.

"1.4 Where to ask for help" has link to https://nm.debian.org/
There, we find link to http://www.debian.org/devel/join/newmaint
That is where people get idea.

Also in "2.1 Choose your program" there is
 * joining packaging teams
which is link to http://wiki.debian.org/Teams
The "Packaging teams" is listed there as a part.
These teams are not always tutoring mailing list for newbie.  So
advocating such use may not be desirable.

I now think we have enough hints.  Let me close this bug since I think
enough has been included and adding too much contents on unfocused area
dilutes documentation.

Please understand.

Osamu






Bug archived. Request was from Debbugs Internal Request <owner@bugs.debian.org> to internal_control@bugs.debian.org. (Sun, 26 Sep 2010 07:31:22 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Send a report that this bug log contains spam.


Debian bug tracking system administrator <owner@bugs.debian.org>. Last modified: Wed Apr 16 14:10:28 2014; Machine Name: buxtehude.debian.org

Debian Bug tracking system
Copyright (C) 1999 Darren O. Benham, 1997,2003 nCipher Corporation Ltd, 1994-97 Ian Jackson.