Debian Bug report logs - #579796
ITP: othman -- electronic Quran browser in Python

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Message #5 received at submit@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: أحمد المحمودي <aelmahmoudy@sabily.org>

To: Debian Bug Tracking System <submit@bugs.debian.org>

Subject: ITP: othman -- electronic Quran browser in Python

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 23:18:34 +0300

Package: wnpp
Severity: wishlist
Owner: "أحمد المحمودي" <aelmahmoudy@sabily.org>


* Package name    : othman
  Version         : 0.2.0
  Upstream Author : Muayyad Saleh Alsadi <alsadi@ojuba.org>
* URL             : http://othman.ojuba.org
* License         : Waqf Public License
  Programming Lang: Python
  Description     : electronic Quran browser

 Othman electronic Quran browser displays Quranic text in Othmani script style
 as written under authority of Othman ibn Affan the companion of prophet
 Muhammad (Peace Be Upon Him).
 .
 Othman project features fast search, autoscrolling, copy Quranic text to
 clipboard.

Message #10 received at 579796@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Adam Borowski <kilobyte@angband.pl>

To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org, 579796@bugs.debian.org

Subject: Re: Bug#579796: ITP: othman -- electronic Quran browser in Python

Date: Sat, 1 May 2010 11:27:27 +0200

On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 11:18:34PM +0300, أحمد المحمودي wrote:
> * Package name    : othman
>   Description     : electronic Quran browser
> * URL             : http://othman.ojuba.org
> * License         : Waqf Public License
http://www.ojuba.org/wiki/waqf/license

While I do like the preamble of the license (putting aside religion and
anti-Americanism), the body does include significant usage restrictions:

# The user may use the work for any good purpose and he may not use it to
# harm others or violate the permissive principles of Islam.

"Harm others" is a vague term that can be applied to a wide range of
activities usually considered ok[1].  Most of these seem to be irrelevant to
a Quran browser[2], unless you consider criticizing Islam to be "harming".

"Violate the permissive principles of Islam" seems to forbid using this
browser to search for, or refer to, lines of Quran which are harmful from
whatever side of view.  This is a legitimate use of this package.  This
fails the DFSG, unless we interpret the phrase "permissive principles" as
limited to only those parts of Islam which grant some kind of permission
rather than forbid something.  Since religions (and laws in general) operate
by restricting things, being unable to actually grant something not
otherwise possible without that religion/law, such an interpretation doesn't
appear to make much sense, though.


Also, this comment mentions issues found by Fedora guys:

} 2009/11/14 21:21 هشام هواري,
} السلام عليكم و رحمة الله تعالى و بركاته،

} Before trying to submit hijra, I exposed this license to #fedora-devel on
} irc, and it was seen as being non-free, the reason is this excerpt : “The
} user may use the work for any good purpose and he may not use it to harm
} others or violate the permissive principles of Islam. Notice that any
} work that is most likely harmful can't be put under Waqf in the first place”
} The definition of “good” must be clear.

} I hope that you will take that into consideration.
} في أمان الله
} و السلام عليكم و رحمة الله تعالى و بركاته


[2]. Even if a restriction seems to be moot for the intended use, one of key
Free Software freedoms is being able to repurpose the program in question
for anything else, including taking small pieces of code for use in totally
unrelated software.

[1]. Examples of "harming others" being generally ok:

* any piece of software used in a company that builds a highway that would
  relieve the traffic in a large city, but to build the highway, you need to
  remove a single house.  Obviously, that house's dweller will be harmed
  even if he receives generous compensation due to childhood memories and
  other such considerations.

* anything used during an audit that exposes a slacker, embezzler, terrorist
  or fraudster.  The person caught will be obviously harmed, even if he
  intended harm himself.  In fact, during a war or most struggles, you can't
  even undisputably name one side as "good" and the other as "evil".  Heck,
  this includes even disputes between neighbours about a flower on the hedge
  between their houses.

* use in a nuclear power plant.  While many, including me, consider those to
  be nearly strictly better, cleaner and safer than coal plants, there are
  many which consider these to be outright evil.  In fact, we have seen
  multiple software licenses which disallowed any such use for "moral"
  grounds as opposed to merely not risking standing afoul of some unnamed
  regulation.


-- 
1KB		// Microsoft corollary to Hanlon's razor:
		//	Never attribute to stupidity what can be
		//	adequately explained by malice.

Message #15 received at 579796@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: أحمد المحمودي <aelmahmoudy@sabily.org>

To: Adam Borowski <kilobyte@angband.pl>, 579796@bugs.debian.org

Cc: debian-devel@lists.debian.org

Subject: Re: Bug#579796: ITP: othman -- electronic Quran browser in Python

Date: Sat, 1 May 2010 12:48:47 +0300

On Sat, May 01, 2010 at 11:27:27AM +0200, Adam Borowski wrote:
> "Harm others" is a vague term that can be applied to a wide range of
> activities usually considered ok[1].

I am indeed discussing this matter with upstream. That license terms 
need to be clear not vague.

> This fails the DFSG, unless we interpret the phrase "permissive
> principles" as limited to only those parts of Islam which grant some
> kind of permission rather than forbid something.  Since religions (and
> laws in general) operate by restricting things, being unable to
> actually grant something not otherwise possible without that
> religion/law, such an interpretation doesn't appear to make much
> sense, though.

I don't understand this paragraph.

-- 
 ‎أحمد المحمودي (Ahmed El-Mahmoudy)
  Digital design engineer
 GPG KeyID: 0xEDDDA1B7
 GPG Fingerprint: 8206 A196 2084 7E6D 0DF8  B176 BC19 6A94 EDDD A1B7

Message #20 received at 579796@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Mike Hommey <mh@glandium.org>

To: أحمد المحمودي <aelmahmoudy@sabily.org>

Cc: Adam Borowski <kilobyte@angband.pl>, 579796@bugs.debian.org, debian-devel@lists.debian.org

Subject: Re: Bug#579796: ITP: othman -- electronic Quran browser in Python

Date: Sat, 1 May 2010 13:04:26 +0200

On Sat, May 01, 2010 at 12:48:47PM +0300, أحمد المحمودي wrote:
> On Sat, May 01, 2010 at 11:27:27AM +0200, Adam Borowski wrote:
> > "Harm others" is a vague term that can be applied to a wide range of
> > activities usually considered ok[1].
> 
> I am indeed discussing this matter with upstream. That license terms 
> need to be clear not vague.

Clear or vague, if they stick to a license that restricts usage, then
it fails DFSG #6.
See http://lists.debian.org/debian-legal/2010/03/msg00064.html, for
example, for a quite similar case.

Mike

Message #25 received at 579796@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: أحمد المحمودي <aelmahmoudy@sabily.org>

To: Adam Borowski <kilobyte@angband.pl>, 579796@bugs.debian.org, debian-devel@lists.debian.org

Subject: Re: Bug#579796: ITP: othman -- electronic Quran browser in Python

Date: Sat, 1 May 2010 14:19:03 +0300

On Sat, May 01, 2010 at 01:04:26PM +0200, Mike Hommey wrote:
> Clear or vague, if they stick to a license that restricts usage, then
> it fails DFSG #6.
> See http://lists.debian.org/debian-legal/2010/03/msg00064.html, for
> example, for a quite similar case.
---end quoted text---

Yes, but it can be placed in non-free, right ?

-- 
 ‎أحمد المحمودي (Ahmed El-Mahmoudy)
  Digital design engineer
 GPG KeyID: 0xEDDDA1B7
 GPG Fingerprint: 8206 A196 2084 7E6D 0DF8  B176 BC19 6A94 EDDD A1B7

Message #30 received at 579796@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Simon Richter <sjr@debian.org>

To: أحمد المحمودي <aelmahmoudy@sabily.org>

Cc: Adam Borowski <kilobyte@angband.pl>, 579796@bugs.debian.org, debian-devel@lists.debian.org

Subject: Re: Bug#579796: ITP: othman -- electronic Quran browser in Python

Date: Sat, 1 May 2010 15:02:12 +0200

Hi,

On Sat, May 01, 2010 at 02:19:03PM +0300, أحمد المحمودي wrote:

> > Clear or vague, if they stick to a license that restricts usage, then
> > it fails DFSG #6.
> > See http://lists.debian.org/debian-legal/2010/03/msg00064.html, for
> > example, for a quite similar case.

> Yes, but it can be placed in non-free, right ?

I think the main problem is that "good" is a subjective term, so people
who believe that they are doing "good" feel entitled to use the work,
and others who disagree with their views will claim that they are in
breach of the licence. Who gets to be the authority on what is "good"?

I'd also prefer if people would not use my software for causes I find
objectionable, but I don't think I can even do so much as draw a clear
line what constitutes "use". For example, I've written a tiny script
that will take your GPG key and produce a printable file with the
important data of the key arranged so that you can easily create bits of
paper to hand out at keysigning events. Now, people are using this to
establish secure communication channels, which can be used for any kind
of purpose, including conspiring to commit crime. Am I at fault for not
excluding this in the licence? Have I facilitated that crime because I
made it easier for the criminals to conspire?

I think at some point I just have to decline responsibility for others.

   Simon

Message #35 received at 579796@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: <muayyad.alsadi@ojuba.org>

To: <579796@bugs.debian.org>, Core <core@ojuba.org>

Subject: waqf license

Date: Sat, 01 May 2010 18:18:31 +0300

hello, we are the upstream developer of both (the license and the othman
project)

first of all please just put it in non-free and save my time.
I'm a developer and I got things todo other than teaching people what does
Fiqh mean.

> "Harm others" is a vague term

unlike json.org license < http://www.json.org/license.html

we did not use a vague term like "The Software shall be used for Good, not
Evil."

as we have set the criteria which is the Shari'a
it's well-established jurisprudence (Fiqh) and it's taught in Universities
all over the world (including the west)

and has be so (well-established) since the raise of 4 Fiqh schools 1200
years ago.

> unless you consider criticizing Islam to be "harming".
For some reason people in the west like you links Islam with censorship,
this is a joke!
what does this has to do with the review ?

because from what I see, you are telling people that we got the following
plot:
1. make a Quran browser with vague license
2. push it to debian/ubuntu/...etc.
3. sue those who criticize Islam for copyright infringement

BTW: the license is not only used in our Quran browser project, it's also
used by things like a web framework
http://git.ojuba.org/cgit/okasha/tree/

so don't troll us with such examples

> unless we interpret the phrase "permissive principles" as limited to
only those parts of Islam which grant some kind of permission rather than
forbid something.

permissive law is just a commonly used alias for Islamic law, it's not
parts of it.
It's called so because one of its principles says "الأصل في الأشياء
الإباحة"
"every thing is permissible unless otherwise shown" 

> ... irc ... fedora ...
one can't take irc for anything, it's not even logged.
You should refer to fedora legal ML
here is the link
http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/legal/2010-February/001148.html

> * use in a nuclear power plant. ... to be outright evil.
here is our FAQ (which I'm too busy to continue)
http://www.ojuba.org/wiki/waqf/faq

 * How Waqf passes “The freedom to run the program, for any purpose” in
FSF's definition of Free Software while “Waqf” ?
   o later it says “to help your neighbor” not to kill him! having a
license from the author does not make illegal things legal.

Message #40 received at 579796@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Gunnar Wolf <gwolf@gwolf.org>

To: أحمد المحمودي <aelmahmoudy@sabily.org>

Cc: Adam Borowski <kilobyte@angband.pl>, 579796@bugs.debian.org, debian-devel@lists.debian.org

Subject: Re: Bug#579796: ITP: othman -- electronic Quran browser in Python

Date: Mon, 3 May 2010 22:24:54 -0500

أحمد المحمودي dijo [Sat, May 01, 2010 at 12:48:47PM +0300]:
> On Sat, May 01, 2010 at 11:27:27AM +0200, Adam Borowski wrote:
> > "Harm others" is a vague term that can be applied to a wide range of
> > activities usually considered ok[1].
> 
> I am indeed discussing this matter with upstream. That license terms 
> need to be clear not vague.

Without getting deeper in the licensing of Othman itself, would you
consider the text of the Coran itself to be DFSG-free? I _think_ that
any religious text can only be distributed verbatim, not modified in
any way - That is completely legitimate, as it has been debated over
and over regarding the IETF RFCs. 

-- 
Gunnar Wolf • gwolf@gwolf.org • (+52-55)5623-0154 / 1451-2244

Message #45 received at 579796@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Adam Borowski <kilobyte@angband.pl>

To: 579796@bugs.debian.org, debian-devel@lists.debian.org

Subject: Re: Bug#579796: ITP: othman -- electronic Quran browser in Python

Date: Tue, 4 May 2010 11:07:23 +0200

On Mon, May 03, 2010 at 10:24:54PM -0500, Gunnar Wolf wrote:
> Without getting deeper in the licensing of Othman itself, would you
> consider the text of the Coran itself to be DFSG-free? I _think_ that
> any religious text can only be distributed verbatim, not modified in
> any way - That is completely legitimate, as it has been debated over
> and over regarding the IETF RFCs. 

The Koran is definitely out of copyright, and thus in the public domain. 
While altering the actual text may be pointless (and disrespectful for the
religion in question), it is still allowed, at least in a vast majority of
countries.  And taking excerpts or adding commentary is a damn popular thing
to do.

-- 
1KB		// Microsoft corollary to Hanlon's razor:
		//	Never attribute to stupidity what can be
		//	adequately explained by malice.

Message #50 received at 579796@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Frank Lin PIAT <fpiat@klabs.be>

To: أحمد المحمودي <aelmahmoudy@sabily.org>, 579796@bugs.debian.org

Cc: Debian Devel <debian-devel@lists.debian.org>

Subject: Re: Bug#579796: ITP: othman -- electronic Quran browser in Python

Date: Tue, 04 May 2010 21:39:02 +0200

On Fri, 2010-04-30 at 23:18 +0300, أحمد المحمودي wrote:
> * Package name    : othman
> * License         : Waqf Public License
>   Description     : electronic Quran browser
> 
>  Othman electronic Quran browser displays Quranic text in Othmani script style
>  as written under authority of Othman ibn Affan the companion of prophet
>  Muhammad (Peace Be Upon Him).

Regarding the long description,

Not everyone knows that "Othmani script" is a script for Arabic. (I
didn't know it anyway;) So it might be worth mentioning that the text is
in Arabic only (is it?).

> Othman project features fast search, autoscrolling
I suggest "Othman brower features fast search and autoscrolling"

> copy Quranic text to clipboard.

Copy/Paste is a trivial feature. You might want to drop it from the
description (except if this feature is fairly unique for Quran readers)

I wonder who many people use the word "Coran" for Qur'an in English. If
this is quite frequent, you might want insert this synonym somewhere in
the description.

My 2 cents,

Franklin

Message #55 received at 579796@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: أحمد المحمودي <aelmahmoudy@sabily.org>

To: Frank Lin PIAT <fpiat@klabs.be>

Cc: 579796@bugs.debian.org, Debian Devel <debian-devel@lists.debian.org>

Subject: Re: Bug#579796: ITP: othman -- electronic Quran browser in Python

Date: Tue, 4 May 2010 23:15:02 +0300

On Tue, May 04, 2010 at 09:39:02PM +0200, Frank Lin PIAT wrote:
> On Fri, 2010-04-30 at 23:18 +0300, أحمد المحمودي wrote:
> > * Package name    : othman
> > * License         : Waqf Public License
> >   Description     : electronic Quran browser
> > 
> >  Othman electronic Quran browser displays Quranic text in Othmani script style
> >  as written under authority of Othman ibn Affan the companion of prophet
> >  Muhammad (Peace Be Upon Him).
> 
> Regarding the long description,
> 
> Not everyone knows that "Othmani script" is a script for Arabic. (I
> didn't know it anyway;) So it might be worth mentioning that the text is
> in Arabic only (is it?).
> 
> > Othman project features fast search, autoscrolling
> I suggest "Othman brower features fast search and autoscrolling"

Thanks for the above suggestions.

> Copy/Paste is a trivial feature. You might want to drop it from the
> description (except if this feature is fairly unique for Quran readers)

Yes, the uniqueness is that copy/paste can actually copy the text in 
the non-Othmani arabic script (called Imla'i script, that's an arabic 
word transliterated, I dunno the proper translation unfortunately). This 
is because usually text processors (& fonts) do not support the Othmani 
script, hence pasting the verse in a text processor for example would 
give un-readable result.

> I wonder who many people use the word "Coran" for Qur'an in English. If
> this is quite frequent, you might want insert this synonym somewhere in
> the description.

I realized that people using the word "Coran" have french background.

-- 
 ‎أحمد المحمودي (Ahmed El-Mahmoudy)
  Digital design engineer
 GPG KeyID: 0xEDDDA1B7
 GPG Fingerprint: 8206 A196 2084 7E6D 0DF8  B176 BC19 6A94 EDDD A1B7

Message #60 received at 579796@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: "brian m. carlson" <sandals@crustytoothpaste.ath.cx>

To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org, 579796@bugs.debian.org

Subject: Re: Bug#579796: ITP: othman -- electronic Quran browser in Python

Date: Tue, 4 May 2010 20:25:33 +0000

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

On Tue, May 04, 2010 at 09:39:02PM +0200, Frank Lin PIAT wrote:
> I wonder who many people use the word "Coran" for Qur'an in English. If
> this is quite frequent, you might want insert this synonym somewhere in
> the description.

In my experience, it's either "Qur'an" or "Koran."  I think Gunnar used
"Coran" because TTBOMK that's the term that's used in Spanish (except
with an accent: Corán).

-- 
brian m. carlson / brian with sandals: Houston, Texas, US
+1 832 623 2791 | http://www.crustytoothpaste.net/~bmc | My opinion only
OpenPGP: RSA v4 4096b: 88AC E9B2 9196 305B A994 7552 F1BA 225C 0223 B187

[signature.asc (application/pgp-signature, inline)]

Message #65 received at 579796@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Filippo Rusconi <rusconi-debian@laposte.net>

To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org, 579796@bugs.debian.org

Subject: Re: Bug#579796: ITP: othman -- electronic Quran browser in Python

Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 00:05:56 +0200

On Tue, May 04, 2010 at 08:25:33PM +0000, brian m. carlson wrote:
> On Tue, May 04, 2010 at 09:39:02PM +0200, Frank Lin PIAT wrote:
> > I wonder who many people use the word "Coran" for Qur'an in English. If
> > this is quite frequent, you might want insert this synonym somewhere in
> > the description.
> 
> In my experience, it's either "Qur'an" or "Koran."  I think Gunnar used
> "Coran" because TTBOMK that's the term that's used in Spanish (except
> with an accent: Corán).
> 

Well, in fact, in French that is "Le Coran", with a 'C' and not a
'K'. In Italian that is "Il Corano". Interestingly , the word is
always accompanied by the definite article in both languages, although
I do not know if the article should be necessarily be capitalized.

-- 
Best regards,
                 Filippo

-- 
Filippo Rusconi, PhD - CNRS - public key C78F687C
Author of ``massXpert''     at http://www.massxpert.org

Message #72 received at 579796-close@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: أحمد المحمودي (Ahmed El-Mahmoudy) <aelmahmoudy@sabily.org>

To: 579796-close@bugs.debian.org

Subject: Bug#579796: fixed in othman 0.2.5-1

Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2010 14:32:26 +0000

Source: othman
Source-Version: 0.2.5-1

We believe that the bug you reported is fixed in the latest version of
othman, which is due to be installed in the Debian FTP archive:

othman_0.2.5-1.debian.tar.gz
  to non-free/o/othman/othman_0.2.5-1.debian.tar.gz
othman_0.2.5-1.dsc
  to non-free/o/othman/othman_0.2.5-1.dsc
othman_0.2.5-1_all.deb
  to non-free/o/othman/othman_0.2.5-1_all.deb
othman_0.2.5.orig.tar.bz2
  to non-free/o/othman/othman_0.2.5.orig.tar.bz2
python-othman_0.2.5-1_all.deb
  to non-free/o/othman/python-othman_0.2.5-1_all.deb



A summary of the changes between this version and the previous one is
attached.

Thank you for reporting the bug, which will now be closed.  If you
have further comments please address them to 579796@bugs.debian.org,
and the maintainer will reopen the bug report if appropriate.

Debian distribution maintenance software
pp.
أحمد المحمودي (Ahmed El-Mahmoudy) <aelmahmoudy@sabily.org> (supplier of updated othman package)

(This message was generated automatically at their request; if you
believe that there is a problem with it please contact the archive
administrators by mailing ftpmaster@debian.org)


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

Format: 1.8
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 23:04:02 +0300
Source: othman
Binary: python-othman othman
Architecture: source all
Version: 0.2.5-1
Distribution: unstable
Urgency: low
Maintainer: Debian Islamic Maintainers <debian-islamic-maintainers@lists.alioth.debian.org>
Changed-By: أحمد المحمودي (Ahmed El-Mahmoudy) <aelmahmoudy@sabily.org>
Description: 
 othman     - electronic Quran browser
 python-othman - library providing access to Quranic text with a fast search index
Closes: 579796
Changes: 
 othman (0.2.5-1) unstable; urgency=low
 .
   * Initial release (Closes: #579796)
   * Added patch separate_setup.py.diff to remove call for setup.py from
     Makefile.
   * Added patch gen-index_setup.py.diff, to move call to generate Qur'an index
     from Makefile to setup.py, that would make the package build even if
     python2.5 is the default python.
   * Added a patch desktop-categories.diff, to add Education;Literature
     to categories
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