Debian Bug report logs - #579154
foo2zjs: adds a strange icon "HPLJ 10xx Replaced Paper"

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Message #5 received at submit@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Fabian Greffrath <fabian+debian@greffrath.com>

To: Debian Bug Tracking System <submit@bugs.debian.org>

Subject: foo2zjs: adds a strange icon "HPLJ 10xx Replaced Paper"

Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 21:46:55 +0200

Package: foo2zjs
Version: 20090908dfsg-3
Severity: minor
Tags: squeeze

Hi,  on a freshyl installed Debian desktop system a find a strange icon called
"HPLJ 10xx Replaced Paper" in my Applications menu. The problem I find in this
icon is (1) that I don't own such a printer and (2) that its rather ugly GUI
(sorry) doesn't fit to my GNOME desktop in any way.   I'd like to suggest two
possible ways how to reduce this negative desktop experience: 1) This icon gets
disabled by default in the /usr/share/applications/hplj1020.desktop file or 2)
this icon gets disabled by default in GNOME (thus CCing pkg-gnome team).  I do
think, however, that this package is usefull enough to keep it as part of a
standard install so I would not suggest to remove it from this task (which
would theoretically make a third option).  Cheers, Fabian


-- System Information:
Debian Release: squeeze/sid
  APT prefers testing
  APT policy: (990, 'testing'), (550, 'unstable'), (400, 'experimental')
Architecture: i386 (i686)

Kernel: Linux 2.6.32-4-686 (SMP w/1 CPU core)
Locale: LANG=de_DE.UTF-8, LC_CTYPE=de_DE.UTF-8 (charmap=UTF-8)
Shell: /bin/sh linked to /bin/dash

Versions of packages foo2zjs depends on:
ii  libc6                         2.10.2-6   Embedded GNU C Library: Shared lib

Versions of packages foo2zjs recommends:
ii  foomatic-db-engine        4.0-20090509-1 OpenPrinting printer support - pro
ii  tix [tix]                 8.4.0-7        The Tix library for Tk -- runtime 
ii  tk8.4                     8.4.19-4       Tk toolkit for Tcl and X11, v8.4 -
ii  unzip                     6.0-4          De-archiver for .zip files
ii  wget                      1.12-2         retrieves files from the web

Versions of packages foo2zjs suggests:
pn  hannah-foo2zjs                <none>     (no description available)
pn  psutils                       <none>     (no description available)

-- no debconf information

Message #10 received at 579154@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Luca Capello <luca@pca.it>

To: Fabian Greffrath <fabian+debian@greffrath.com>

Cc: 579154@bugs.debian.org, pkg-gnome-maintainers@lists.alioth.debian.org

Subject: Re: [Foo2zjs-maintainer] Bug#579154: foo2zjs: adds a strange icon "HPLJ 10xx Replaced Paper"

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 13:02:24 +0200

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

severity 579154 wishlist
tags 579154 + upstream
thanks

Hi Fabian!

On Sun, 25 Apr 2010 21:46:55 +0200, Fabian Greffrath wrote:
> Tags: squeeze

What is the reason for this tag?  This has nothing to do with squeeze
(or I have missed an announcement), since it affects both testing and
unstable.

> Hi,  on a freshyl installed Debian desktop system a find a strange icon called
> "HPLJ 10xx Replaced Paper" in my Applications menu.

Well, I do not see that as a strange icon: at least it represents
exactly the product the software it is written for, which is not the
case for other icons, e.g. Ekiga or VLC.  And I found it even better
than the "Default Printer" icon in the GNOME Preferences in unstable ;-)

> The problem I find in this icon is (1) that I don't own such a printer

/me neither, FWIW.

> and (2) that its rather ugly GUI (sorry) doesn't fit to my GNOME
> desktop in any way.

Sorry and do not get it personal, but this is not a reason for a "minor"
bug, instead I changed the severity to wishlist.

> I'd like to suggest two possible ways how to reduce this negative
> desktop experience:

Again, do not get it personal, but what does "negative desktop
experience" mean?  The icon is there and it is even nicer than other
*default* GNOME icons, it states one single action (replace the paper
for the HPLJ 10xx printers).


> 1) This icon gets disabled by default in the
> /usr/share/applications/hplj1020.desktop file

Which means that:

- we patch upstream without a valid reason.

- users who need this software must read the documentation (which we as
  Debian have to write and keep updated), which is not a good option
  IMHO.

> or 2) this icon gets disabled by default in GNOME (thus CCing
> pkg-gnome team).

I kept the cc: (and thank you for it!), but I would say, again, that
there is no valid reason for that.

> I do think, however, that this package is usefull enough to keep it as
> part of a standard install so I would not suggest to remove it from
> this task (which would theoretically make a third option).

I would not say that this is an option at all: should we remove sane
because only a minority of the users will use it?

I would be happy to find a solution which fits all users, but I am not
sure there would be one in this case...

Thx, bye,
Gismo / Luca

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Message #21 received at 579154@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Fabian Greffrath <fabian@greffrath.com>

To: Luca Capello <luca@pca.it>

Cc: control <control@bugs.debian.org>, 579154@bugs.debian.org, pkg-gnome-maintainers@lists.alioth.debian.org

Subject: Re: [Foo2zjs-maintainer] Bug#579154: foo2zjs: adds a strange icon "HPLJ 10xx Replaced Paper"

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 13:27:40 +0200

tags 579154 - squeeze
thanks

Hi Luca et al,

Am 28.04.2010 13:02, schrieb Luca Capello:
> What is the reason for this tag?  This has nothing to do with squeeze
> (or I have missed an announcement), since it affects both testing and
> unstable.

Yes, sorry. I added this to indicate that this issue stroke me on a 
fresh suqeeze install. It should not mean that this does not apply to 
stable or unstable as well, though.

> Well, I do not see that as a strange icon: at least it represents
> exactly the product the software it is written for, which is not the
> case for other icons, e.g. Ekiga or VLC.  And I found it even better
> than the "Default Printer" icon in the GNOME Preferences in unstable ;-)

Yes, but these icons represent software that serve general purposes, 
whereas the icon in question is *only* usable for a special action 
this very printer model.

> Sorry and do not get it personal, but this is not a reason for a "minor"
> bug, instead I changed the severity to wishlist.

I am fine with this.

> Again, do not get it personal, but what does "negative desktop
> experience" mean?  The icon is there and it is even nicer than other
> *default* GNOME icons, it states one single action (replace the paper
> for the HPLJ 10xx printers).

The "negative desktop experience" means that my first impression when 
clicking through the menus was: WTF?! I think the icon's use case is 
much too special to justify it being visible in each and every 
standard install.

And with regard to the standard GNOME icon set, the situation has 
vastly improved with the 2.30 version of the gnome-icon-theme package, 
you should really try it out.

>> or 2) this icon gets disabled by default in GNOME (thus CCing
>> pkg-gnome team).
> I kept the cc: (and thank you for it!), but I would say, again, that
> there is no valid reason for that.

This has already been done, see:
<http://svn.debian.org/wsvn/pkg-gnome/?op=comp&compare[]=%2F@24017&compare[]=%2F@24018&manualorder=1>

> I would not say that this is an option at all: should we remove sane
> because only a minority of the users will use it?

No, I think foo2zjs itself is important enough to get installed, but I 
don't think the same about this specific icon.

> I would be happy to find a solution which fits all users, but I am not
> sure there would be one in this case...

To be honest, I have expressed my opinion and am confident with the 
measures that have been taken. I'd like to leave it up to you (plural) 
to elaborate the perfect[tm] solution. ;)

Cheers,
Fabian

Message #26 received at 579154@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Josselin Mouette <joss@debian.org>

To: Luca Capello <luca@pca.it>

Cc: Fabian Greffrath <fabian+debian@greffrath.com>, 579154@bugs.debian.org, pkg-gnome-maintainers@lists.alioth.debian.org

Subject: Re: [Foo2zjs-maintainer] Bug#579154: foo2zjs: adds a strange icon "HPLJ 10xx Replaced Paper"

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 13:40:25 +0200

Le mercredi 28 avril 2010 à 13:02 +0200, Luca Capello a écrit :
> > I'd like to suggest two possible ways how to reduce this negative
> > desktop experience:
> 
> Again, do not get it personal, but what does "negative desktop
> experience" mean?  The icon is there and it is even nicer than other
> *default* GNOME icons, it states one single action (replace the paper
> for the HPLJ 10xx printers).

Great. How useful.
*BONK*

> > 1) This icon gets disabled by default in the
> > /usr/share/applications/hplj1020.desktop file
> 
> Which means that:
> 
> - we patch upstream without a valid reason.

“Useless icon polluting the menus” is an utmost valid reason. The main
menu is the primary interface for users, and if they see an icon to
change the paper for a printer they don’t own, they’ll get confused.
Even worse, this means less room for other, more useful icons. Since
each menu with more than 10 entries brings hassle to find the correct
applications, you are just making the interface worse for other users.

> > or 2) this icon gets disabled by default in GNOME (thus CCing
> > pkg-gnome team).
> 
> I kept the cc: (and thank you for it!), but I would say, again, that
> there is no valid reason for that.

FYI this has been done in the SVN and will be in the next upload.

You are not the first uncooperative maintainer who wants to have his pet
icon in the menu by default, and this is why we already have a more
fine-tuned selection in gnome-menus.

> I would not say that this is an option at all: should we remove sane
> because only a minority of the users will use it?

Ideally, sane should only show up when you plug a scanner.

But anyway, it is far more useful than a program specific to one printer
model. More than anything, it is *generic*.

> I would be happy to find a solution which fits all users, but I am not
> sure there would be one in this case...

Sure there is one: disable the menu entry (NoDisplay=true) and let the
user enable it in the menu editor if he really needs it.

Cheers,
-- 
 .''`.      Josselin Mouette
: :' :
`. `'   “A handshake with whitnesses is the same
  `-     as a signed contact.”  -- Jörg Schilling

Message #31 received at 579154@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Luca Capello <luca@pca.it>

To: Josselin Mouette <joss@debian.org>

Cc: Fabian Greffrath <fabian+debian@greffrath.com>, 579154@bugs.debian.org, pkg-gnome-maintainers@lists.alioth.debian.org

Subject: Re: [Foo2zjs-maintainer] Bug#579154: foo2zjs: adds a strange icon "HPLJ 10xx Replaced Paper"

Date: Sat, 15 May 2010 15:39:12 +0200

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

# my opinion as maintainer
tags 579154 + wontfix
# "fixed" by gnome-menus_2.30.0-2
tags 579154 + pending
thanks

Hi there!

On Wed, 28 Apr 2010 13:40:25 +0200, Josselin Mouette wrote:
> Le mercredi 28 avril 2010 à 13:02 +0200, Luca Capello a écrit :
>> > or 2) this icon gets disabled by default in GNOME (thus CCing
>> > pkg-gnome team).
>> 
>> I kept the cc: (and thank you for it!), but I would say, again, that
>> there is no valid reason for that.
>
> FYI this has been done in the SVN and will be in the next upload.

You could have also added "(Closes: #579154)" (I will close this bug as
soon as gnome-menus_2.30.0-2 will be uploaded), or at least notified us
foo2zjs maintainers.

> You are not the first uncooperative maintainer who wants to have his pet
> icon in the menu by default, and this is why we already have a more
> fine-tuned selection in gnome-menus.

Call me whatever you want, if this likes you, but I think I have proven,
in my Debian work, to be everything but uncooperative.  Anyway, I am
done with this bug:

  http://svn.debian.org/viewsvn/foo2zjs?view=rev&revision=225

Thx, bye,
Gismo / Luca

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Message #40 received at 579154-done@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Luca Capello <luca@pca.it>

To: 579154-done@bugs.debian.org

Cc: pkg-gnome-maintainers@lists.alioth.debian.org

Subject: Re: [Foo2zjs-maintainer] Bug#579154: Bug#579154: foo2zjs: adds a strange icon "HPLJ 10xx Replaced Paper"

Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 10:01:15 -0400

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

Package: gnome-menus
Version: 2.30.2-1

On Sat, 2010-05-15 at 15:39 +0200, Luca Capello wrote:
> On Wed, 28 Apr 2010 13:40:25 +0200, Josselin Mouette wrote:
> > Le mercredi 28 avril 2010 à 13:02 +0200, Luca Capello a écrit :
> >> > or 2) this icon gets disabled by default in GNOME (thus CCing
> >> > pkg-gnome team).
> >> 
> >> I kept the cc: (and thank you for it!), but I would say, again, that
> >> there is no valid reason for that.
> >
> > FYI this has been done in the SVN and will be in the next upload.
> 
> You could have also added "(Closes: #579154)" (I will close this bug as
> soon as gnome-menus_2.30.0-2 will be uploaded),

Done with this mail.

Thx, bye,
Gismo / Luca

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