Debian Bug report logs - #560182
joe: personal ~/.joerc is not used but /etc/joe/joerc

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Package: joe; Maintainer for joe is Josip Rodin <joy-packages@debian.org>; Source for joe is src:joe.

Reported by: jaalto <jari.aalto@cante.net>

Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 14:27:01 UTC

Severity: normal

Found in version joe/3.7-1

Forwarded to https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&aid=2911550&group_id=23475&atid=378598

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Report forwarded to debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org, Josip Rodin <joy-packages@debian.org>:
Bug#560182; Package joe. (Wed, 09 Dec 2009 14:27:04 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Acknowledgement sent to jaalto <jari.aalto@cante.net>:
New Bug report received and forwarded. Copy sent to Josip Rodin <joy-packages@debian.org>. (Wed, 09 Dec 2009 14:27:04 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #5 received at submit@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox):

From: jaalto <jari.aalto@cante.net>
To: Debian Bug Tracking System <submit@bugs.debian.org>
Subject: joe: personal ~/.joerc is not used but /etc/joe/joerc
Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2009 15:52:57 +0200
Package: joe
Version: 3.7-1
Severity: normal


TEST

    joe /tmp/test.txt
    Warning: /etc/joe/joerc is newer than your /home/foo/.joerc.
    You should update or delete /home/foo/.joerc
    Hit enter to continue with /etc/joe/joerc

Program should always prefer $HOME dot files over /etc.

-- System Information:
Debian Release: squeeze/sid
  APT prefers testing
  APT policy: (990, 'testing'), (500, 'unstable'), (1, 'experimental')
Architecture: amd64 (x86_64)

Kernel: Linux 2.6.30-2-amd64 (SMP w/2 CPU cores)
Locale: LANG=en_DK.UTF-8, LC_CTYPE=en_DK.UTF-8 (charmap=UTF-8)
Shell: /bin/sh linked to /bin/dash

Versions of packages joe depends on:
ii  libc6                     2.10.2-2       GNU C Library: Shared libraries
ii  libncurses5               5.7+20090803-2 shared libraries for terminal hand

joe recommends no packages.

joe suggests no packages.

-- no debconf information




Information forwarded to debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org, Josip Rodin <joy-packages@debian.org>:
Bug#560182; Package joe. (Wed, 09 Dec 2009 14:51:09 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Acknowledgement sent to Josip Rodin <joy@debbugs.entuzijast.net>:
Extra info received and forwarded to list. Copy sent to Josip Rodin <joy-packages@debian.org>. (Wed, 09 Dec 2009 14:51:10 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #10 received at 560182@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox):

From: Josip Rodin <joy@debbugs.entuzijast.net>
To: jaalto <jari.aalto@cante.net>, 560182@bugs.debian.org
Subject: Re: Bug#560182: joe: personal ~/.joerc is not used but /etc/joe/joerc
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 15:47:51 +0100
On Wed, Dec 09, 2009 at 03:52:57PM +0200, jaalto wrote:
> Package: joe
> Version: 3.7-1
> Severity: normal
> 
> 
> TEST
> 
>     joe /tmp/test.txt
>     Warning: /etc/joe/joerc is newer than your /home/foo/.joerc.
>     You should update or delete /home/foo/.joerc
>     Hit enter to continue with /etc/joe/joerc
> 
> Program should always prefer $HOME dot files over /etc.

It's warning you that you have to verify that your local syntax is
up to date, because if it's not, your joe may become broken.
Once you do that, even if you make no changes, just touch the file and
the check condition will no longer trigger.

The check is valid, but if you wish to update the verbiage, please suggest.

-- 
     2. That which causes joy or happiness.




Information forwarded to debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org, Josip Rodin <joy-packages@debian.org>:
Bug#560182; Package joe. (Wed, 09 Dec 2009 15:18:07 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Acknowledgement sent to Jari Aalto <jari.aalto@cante.net>:
Extra info received and forwarded to list. Copy sent to Josip Rodin <joy-packages@debian.org>. (Wed, 09 Dec 2009 15:18:07 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #15 received at 560182@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox):

From: Jari Aalto <jari.aalto@cante.net>
To: Josip Rodin <joy@debbugs.entuzijast.net>
Cc: 560182@bugs.debian.org
Subject: Re: Bug#560182: joe: personal ~/.joerc is not used but /etc/joe/joerc
Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2009 17:15:09 +0200
Josip Rodin <joy@debbugs.entuzijast.net> writes:

> On Wed, Dec 09, 2009 at 03:52:57PM +0200, jaalto wrote:
>> Package: joe
>> Version: 3.7-1
>> Severity: normal
>> 
>> 
>> TEST
>> 
>>     joe /tmp/test.txt
>>     Warning: /etc/joe/joerc is newer than your /home/foo/.joerc.
>>     You should update or delete /home/foo/.joerc
>>     Hit enter to continue with /etc/joe/joerc
>> 
>> Program should always prefer $HOME dot files over /etc.
>
> It's warning you that you have to verify that your local syntax is
> up to date, because if it's not, your joe may become broken.
> Once you do that, even if you make no changes, just touch the file and
> the check condition will no longer trigger.
>
> The check is valid, but if you wish to update the verbiage, please suggest.

There a many problems

- The program should never use the /etc no mattet how broken users setup
  is. If the user's setup cannot be used, it should simply die with a
  proper error message.

- The use of timestamp is not an indication of an obsolete setup.

- There is no need to notify user about new file in /etc because the
  upgrades always possibly bring new files. Every user can consult
  the documentation about new features from the manual pages.

About the message

- It is okay to display a warning on erros, or unknown variables, possibly
  obsoleted in "joerc". Simply send them to stderr for capturing with
  "2> joe-messages.log"

- Program should not pause for extra user input.

The problem becomes widespread if every program suddenly started
announcing

    "new setup in /etc" <beep> "did you notice it?" <pause fr user input>

Just simpley start the program and display only errors to stderr.

Jari




Information forwarded to debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org, Josip Rodin <joy-packages@debian.org>:
Bug#560182; Package joe. (Wed, 09 Dec 2009 15:39:09 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Acknowledgement sent to Josip Rodin <joy@debbugs.entuzijast.net>:
Extra info received and forwarded to list. Copy sent to Josip Rodin <joy-packages@debian.org>. (Wed, 09 Dec 2009 15:39:09 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #20 received at 560182@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox):

From: Josip Rodin <joy@debbugs.entuzijast.net>
To: Jari Aalto <jari.aalto@cante.net>
Cc: 560182@bugs.debian.org
Subject: Re: Bug#560182: joe: personal ~/.joerc is not used but /etc/joe/joerc
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 16:37:55 +0100
On Wed, Dec 09, 2009 at 05:15:09PM +0200, Jari Aalto wrote:
> >>     joe /tmp/test.txt
> >>     Warning: /etc/joe/joerc is newer than your /home/foo/.joerc.
> >>     You should update or delete /home/foo/.joerc
> >>     Hit enter to continue with /etc/joe/joerc
> >> 
> >> Program should always prefer $HOME dot files over /etc.
> >
> > It's warning you that you have to verify that your local syntax is
> > up to date, because if it's not, your joe may become broken.
> > Once you do that, even if you make no changes, just touch the file and
> > the check condition will no longer trigger.
> >
> > The check is valid, but if you wish to update the verbiage, please suggest.
> 
> There a many problems
> 
> - The program should never use the /etc no mattet how broken users setup
>   is. If the user's setup cannot be used, it should simply die with a
>   proper error message.

It does that, arguably better - it gives you a warning message and falls
back to the defaults.

> - The use of timestamp is not an indication of an obsolete setup.

It's just an unreliable indication.

> - There is no need to notify user about new file in /etc because the
>   upgrades always possibly bring new files. Every user can consult
>   the documentation about new features from the manual pages.

joe's authors thought it's better to inform the user explicitly.
It's erring on the side of caution, and I don't object to it.
If you wish to take it up with them, please e-mail
joe-editor-general@lists.sourceforge.net and/or file a ticket in the
upstream tracker at http://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=23475

-- 
     2. That which causes joy or happiness.




Information forwarded to debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org, Josip Rodin <joy-packages@debian.org>:
Bug#560182; Package joe. (Wed, 09 Dec 2009 17:45:03 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Acknowledgement sent to Jari Aalto <jari.aalto@cante.net>:
Extra info received and forwarded to list. Copy sent to Josip Rodin <joy-packages@debian.org>. (Wed, 09 Dec 2009 17:45:03 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #25 received at 560182@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox):

From: Jari Aalto <jari.aalto@cante.net>
To: Josip Rodin <joy@debbugs.entuzijast.net>, control@bugs.debian.org
Cc: 560182@bugs.debian.org, joe-editor-general@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: Bug#560182: joe: personal ~/.joerc is not used but /etc/joe/joerc
Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2009 19:42:29 +0200
forwarded 560182 https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&aid=2911550&group_id=23475&atid=378598
thanks,

C.f. Debian bug http://bugs.debian.org/560182

Josip Rodin <joy@debbugs.entuzijast.net> writes:

> On Wed, Dec 09, 2009 at 05:15:09PM +0200, Jari Aalto wrote:
>> >>     joe /tmp/test.txt
>> >>     Warning: /etc/joe/joerc is newer than your /home/foo/.joerc.
>> >>     You should update or delete /home/foo/.joerc
>> >>     Hit enter to continue with /etc/joe/joerc
>> >> 
>> >> Program should always prefer $HOME dot files over /etc.
>> >
>> > It's warning you that you have to verify that your local syntax is
>> > up to date, because if it's not, your joe may become broken.
>> > Once you do that, even if you make no changes, just touch the file and
>> > the check condition will no longer trigger.
>> >
>> > The check is valid, but if you wish to update the verbiage, please suggest.
>> 
>> There a many problems
>> 
>> - The program should never use the /etc no mattet how broken users setup
>>   is. If the user's setup cannot be used, it should simply die with a
>>   proper error message.
>
> It does that, arguably better - it gives you a warning message and falls
> back to the defaults.

The program currently overrides user's settings in every case when the
timestamp differs. This is not correct behavior.

The program should refuse to start if the setup cannot be parsed. But
there is no error here.

>> - There is no need to notify user about new file in /etc because the
>>   upgrades always possibly bring new files. Every user can consult
>>   the documentation about new features from the manual pages.
>
> joe's authors thought it's better to inform the user explicitly.
> It's erring on the side of caution, and I don't object to it.

"Side of caution"? Have more similar of these kind of "checks" and
we have soon the "The Windows (tm) experience"

There is a manual page to document the chnages. There is a NEWS files to
announce changes. It's much clearer for programs to follow the standard
procedures:

- If setup cannot be parsed, exit with status code and print an error.
- Otherwise continue with stadard parsing rules: user's settings first
  in $HOME. If not dound, use system defaults.

It's a good to find out that a mere upgrade causes next version to
<blink> and <beep> and <pause> ... for nothing; when setup is not
broken.

Jari




Set Bug forwarded-to-address to 'https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&aid=2911550&group_id=23475&atid=378598'. Request was from Jari Aalto <jari.aalto@cante.net> to control@bugs.debian.org. (Wed, 09 Dec 2009 17:45:06 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Information forwarded to debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org, Josip Rodin <joy-packages@debian.org>:
Bug#560182; Package joe. (Wed, 09 Dec 2009 19:45:02 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Acknowledgement sent to Josip Rodin <joy@debbugs.entuzijast.net>:
Extra info received and forwarded to list. Copy sent to Josip Rodin <joy-packages@debian.org>. (Wed, 09 Dec 2009 19:45:03 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #32 received at 560182@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox):

From: Josip Rodin <joy@debbugs.entuzijast.net>
To: Jari Aalto <jari.aalto@cante.net>
Cc: 560182@bugs.debian.org
Subject: Re: Bug#560182: joe: personal ~/.joerc is not used but /etc/joe/joerc
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 20:43:23 +0100
On Wed, Dec 09, 2009 at 07:42:29PM +0200, Jari Aalto wrote:
> > It's erring on the side of caution, and I don't object to it.
> 
> "Side of caution"? Have more similar of these kind of "checks" and
> we have soon the "The Windows (tm) experience"

Having just gone through a BIOS update because of and from Windows, which
caused my laptop's BIOS to wedge itself without much recourse, until I
manually disconnected the CMOS battery in order to clear old settings that
seemed to bother it - I just can't force myself to agree with you right now :)

-- 
     2. That which causes joy or happiness.




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