Debian Bug report logs - #471927
ITP: scratch -- easy programming environment designed for kids

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Message #5 received at submit@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Pierre THIERRY <nowhere.man@levallois.eu.org>

To: Debian Bug Tracking System <submit@bugs.debian.org>

Subject: RFP: scratch -- easy programming environment designed for kids

Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2008 07:31:21 +0100

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

Package: wnpp
Severity: wishlist

* Package name    : scratch
  Version         : 1.2.1
  Upstream Author : http://scratch.mit.edu/pages/credits
* URL             : http://scratch.mit.edu/pages/source
* License         : MIT
  Programming Lang: Smalltalk
  Description     : easy programming environment designed for kids

Scratch is a new programming language that makes it easy to create your
own interactive stories, animations, games, music, and art -- and share
your creations on the web.

Scratch is designed to help young people (ages 8 and up) develop 21st
century learning skills. As they create Scratch projects, young people
learn important mathematical and computational ideas, while also gaining
a deeper understanding of the process of design.

-- System Information:
Debian Release: lenny/sid
  APT prefers testing
  APT policy: (990, 'testing'), (502, 'stable'), (501, 'unstable'), (500, 'unstable'), (500, 'stable'), (1, 'experimental')
Architecture: i386 (i686)

Kernel: Linux 2.6.22-2-686 (SMP w/1 CPU core)
Locale: LANG=fr_FR.UTF-8, LC_CTYPE=fr_FR.UTF-8 (charmap=UTF-8)
Shell: /bin/sh linked to /bin/bash

-- 
nowhere.man@levallois.eu.org
OpenPGP 0xD9D50D8A

[signature.asc (application/pgp-signature, inline)]

Message #10 received at 471927@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Jonas Smedegaard <dr@jones.dk>

To: iaep@lists.sugarlabs.org

Cc: 471927@bugs.debian.org

Subject: Re: [IAEP] Scratch license

Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 16:13:00 +0100

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On Sat, Nov 08, 2008 at 10:53:05PM +1030, Bill Kerr wrote:
>I recently discovered, that MIT had changed the Scratch license from 
>free to non commercial

That is indeed sad news! :-(


>On reading the threads about the Squeak / Etoys / Debian issues then it 
>would appear to me that this will effect the distribution of Scratch on 
>Sugar to Debian at least, perhaps others

Scratch is not currently packaged for Debian, but Pierre Thierry (of 
Skolelinux/Debian-edu france) is working on it. Cc'ing the bugreport 
for that packaging work.


>Tom Hoffman wrote in his blog on October 14th:
>"Since it is un-free software it cannot be put in Debian, Ubuntu, Red 
>Hat, or any other free software distribution. Can it be shipped on the 
>XO? This license *significantly* restricts the distribution of Scratch 
>to children around the world, and to what benefit?"
>http://www.tuttlesvc.org/2008/10/scratch-goes-un-free.html
>
>I don't understand MIT thinking on this issue and am concerned about 
>this potential block in the distribution of Scratch (my current 
>preferred visual programming teaching program). It was for these sorts 
>of reasons that I stopped using Game Maker (never open source, 
>initially freeware but when it became successful it went onto a 
>commercial pathway)
>
>What is MIT thinking on this issue?
>
>also see
>http://scratch.wik.is/Scratch_License
>http://scratch.wik.is/Support_Previous/Scratch_License/License

Do you have an alternative link to the old license? Above page now 
redirects to the new license, and it seems that wiki does not provide 
access to older revisions of pages.


 - Jonas

- -- 
* Jonas Smedegaard - idealist og Internet-arkitekt
* Tlf.: +45 40843136  Website: http://dr.jones.dk/

  [x] quote me freely  [ ] ask before reusing  [ ] keep private
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Message #15 received at 471927@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: "Bill Kerr" <billkerr@gmail.com>

To: "Jonas Smedegaard" <dr@jones.dk>

Cc: iaep@lists.sugarlabs.org, 471927@bugs.debian.org

Subject: Re: [IAEP] Scratch license

Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 03:26:58 +1030

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On Sun, Nov 9, 2008 at 1:43 AM, Jonas Smedegaard <dr@jones.dk> wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> On Sat, Nov 08, 2008 at 10:53:05PM +1030, Bill Kerr wrote:
> >I recently discovered, that MIT had changed the Scratch license from
> >free to non commercial
>
> That is indeed sad news! :-(
>
>
> >On reading the threads about the Squeak / Etoys / Debian issues then it
> >would appear to me that this will effect the distribution of Scratch on
> >Sugar to Debian at least, perhaps others
>
> Scratch is not currently packaged for Debian, but Pierre Thierry (of
> Skolelinux/Debian-edu france) is working on it. Cc'ing the bugreport
> for that packaging work.
>
>
> >Tom Hoffman wrote in his blog on October 14th:
> >"Since it is un-free software it cannot be put in Debian, Ubuntu, Red
> >Hat, or any other free software distribution. Can it be shipped on the
> >XO? This license *significantly* restricts the distribution of Scratch
> >to children around the world, and to what benefit?"
> >http://www.tuttlesvc.org/2008/10/scratch-goes-un-free.html
> >
> >I don't understand MIT thinking on this issue and am concerned about
> >this potential block in the distribution of Scratch (my current
> >preferred visual programming teaching program). It was for these sorts
> >of reasons that I stopped using Game Maker (never open source,
> >initially freeware but when it became successful it went onto a
> >commercial pathway)
> >
> >What is MIT thinking on this issue?
> >
> >also see
> >http://scratch.wik.is/Scratch_License
> >http://scratch.wik.is/Support_Previous/Scratch_License/License
>
> Do you have an alternative link to the old license? Above page now
> redirects to the new license, and it seems that wiki does not provide
> access to older revisions of pages.



This is the license (dated 5/7/2007) which is in the folder of my copy of
scratch downloaded previously:

Scratch

Copyright (c) 2007 Massachusetts Institute of Technology

Scratch was developed by Lifelong Kindergarten group at the MIT Media Lab.
See scratch.mit.edu.

Permission is hereby granted, free of charge, to any person obtaining a copy
of this software and accompanying documentation and media files (the
"Software"), to deal in the Software without restriction, including without
limitation the rights to use, copy, modify, merge, publish, distribute,
sublicense, and/or sell copies of the Software, and to permit persons to
whom the Software is furnished to do so, subject to the following
conditions:

The above copyright notice and this permission notice shall be included in
all copies or substantial portions of the Software.

THE SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED "AS IS", WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EXPRESS OR
IMPLIED, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO THE WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY,
FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE AND NONINFRINGEMENT. IN NO EVENT SHALL THE
AUTHORS OR COPYRIGHT HOLDERS BE LIABLE FOR ANY CLAIM, DAMAGES OR OTHER
LIABILITY, WHETHER IN AN ACTION OF CONTRACT, TORT OR OTHERWISE, ARISING
FROM, OUT OF OR IN CONNECTION WITH THE SOFTWARE OR THE USE OR OTHER DEALINGS
IN THE SOFTWARE.






>
>
>
>  - Jonas
>
> - --
> * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist og Internet-arkitekt
> * Tlf.: +45 40843136  Website: http://dr.jones.dk/
>
>  [x] quote me freely  [ ] ask before reusing  [ ] keep private
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> =aYj7
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> _______________________________________________
> IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
> IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org
> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
>

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Message #20 received at 471927@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Yaroslav Halchenko <debian@onerussian.com>

To: 471927@bugs.debian.org

Cc: Pierre THIERRY <nowhere.man@levallois.eu.org>

Subject: any update?

Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2011 17:51:27 -0400

did anyone look recently at scratch?  they now have separate licenses for
binary trademarked one and "open-source":

http://info.scratch.mit.edu/Source_Code

unfortunately copyleft FOSS one has a restriction which even after
rebranding seems to forbid entering main:

3.    you cannot implement the ability to upload projects to any MIT Scratch website (currently, http://scratch.mit.edu),

well -- at least it could fit into non-free

-- 
=------------------------------------------------------------------=
Keep in touch                                     www.onerussian.com
Yaroslav Halchenko                 www.ohloh.net/accounts/yarikoptic

Message #25 received at 471927@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Michael Hanke <mih@debian.org>

To: 471927@bugs.debian.org

Cc: Yaroslav Halchenko <debian@onerussian.com>

Subject: Packaging attempt

Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2011 19:59:26 -0400

Hi,

last year I made an attempt to package it. It looks like licensing is a
non-issue as long as it is redistributable (which it is). The key point
is that ftp-masters consider the whole culture of squeak VMs as non-free
anyway.  Maybe they are are not aware of the point that the VM image is the
preferred form of modification. Take a look at the etoys package for the
story.

I git cloned their SVN and started stripping, unnecessary binary stuff
and evaluating whether it would work with Debian's squeak-vm. It looks
like it does.

Anyway, I got distracted repeatedly and never produced a respectable
packaging. Once I have that I'll publish the git repo. However, this
should not stop others from oding everything much quicker and better
than I could ;-)

Some open questions/tasks:

* Does it really need pulseaudio? Or: how can it be made easily
  configurable to use any of the supported audio backends?
* Ask for the sources of the binary plugins that are contained in SVN
  and shipped with scratch.
* Camera plugin got removed -- is there a replacement? Is it necessary?


Michael

-- 
Michael Hanke
http://mih.voxindeserto.de

Message #30 received at 471927@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Miriam Ruiz <miriam@debian.org>

To: Scratch on Linux <linux@scratch.mit.edu>

Cc: 637835@bugs.debian.org, 471927@bugs.debian.org

Subject: Scratch: Question about the license of the plugins

Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2011 20:55:55 +0200

Hi,

I'm trying to package the Squeak plugins needed for Scratch and
derivatives on Linux [1], for Debian. AFAIK, those plugins are
distributed under a MIT license [2], but I want to make sure of that
before uploading anything to the archive. Could you possibly confirm
that the code available at [3] is distributed under the license shown
in [2]?

I'm asking because it seems that Scratch itself doesn't comply with
the DFSG [4], and thus cannot be distributed in Debian's main archive
[5].

Lots of thanks,
Miry

[1] http://bugs.debian.org/637835
[2] http://my-svn.assembla.com/svn/scratchonlinux/trunk/scratch/license.txt
[3] http://my-svn.assembla.com/svn/scratchonlinux/trunk/scratch/src/plugins/
[4] http://www.debian.org/social_contract
[5] http://bugs.debian.org/471927

Message #35 received at 471927@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: John Maloney <jmaloney@media.mit.edu>

To: Miriam Ruiz <miriam@debian.org>

Cc: Scratch on Linux <linux@scratch.mit.edu>, 637835@bugs.debian.org, 471927@bugs.debian.org

Subject: Re: Scratch: Question about the license of the plugins

Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2011 19:34:09 -0400

Hi, Miriam.

Yes, the plugins are under the MIT open source license, and I believe Squeak is under an Linux-friendly open source license (can't remember which).

The rest of the Scratch source -- the part written in Smalltalk -- is under the Scratch license which, as you say, is a barrier to distribution on some repositories.

	-- John

On Aug 15, 2011, at 2:55 PM, Miriam Ruiz wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> I'm trying to package the Squeak plugins needed for Scratch and
> derivatives on Linux [1], for Debian. AFAIK, those plugins are
> distributed under a MIT license [2], but I want to make sure of that
> before uploading anything to the archive. Could you possibly confirm
> that the code available at [3] is distributed under the license shown
> in [2]?
> 
> I'm asking because it seems that Scratch itself doesn't comply with
> the DFSG [4], and thus cannot be distributed in Debian's main archive
> [5].
> 
> Lots of thanks,
> Miry
> 
> [1] http://bugs.debian.org/637835
> [2] http://my-svn.assembla.com/svn/scratchonlinux/trunk/scratch/license.txt
> [3] http://my-svn.assembla.com/svn/scratchonlinux/trunk/scratch/src/plugins/
> [4] http://www.debian.org/social_contract
> [5] http://bugs.debian.org/471927

Message #40 received at 471927@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Miriam Ruiz <miriam@debian.org>

To: John Maloney <jmaloney@media.mit.edu>

Cc: Scratch on Linux <linux@scratch.mit.edu>, 637835@bugs.debian.org, 471927@bugs.debian.org

Subject: Re: Scratch: Question about the license of the plugins

Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 02:27:21 +0200

2011/8/16 John Maloney <jmaloney@media.mit.edu>:
> Hi, Miriam.
>
> Yes, the plugins are under the MIT open source license, and I believe Squeak is under an Linux-friendly open source license (can't remember which).
>
> The rest of the Scratch source -- the part written in Smalltalk -- is under the Scratch license which, as you say, is a barrier to distribution on some repositories.

That clarifies it. Lots of thanks! :)

Greetings,
Miry

Message #45 received at 471927@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Miriam Ruiz <miriam@debian.org>

To: Amos Blanton <amos@scratch.mit.edu>

Cc: Linux Scratch <linux@scratch.mit.edu>, scratch@lists.launchpad.net, 471927@bugs.debian.org

Subject: Re: Scratch 1.4 source code released under GPL v2

Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 22:34:09 +0200

2012/3/28 Amos Blanton <amos@scratch.mit.edu>:
> The Scratch Team has re-released the Scratch 1.4 source code under the GPL
> v2. You can find a link to the source tarball here:
>
> http://info.scratch.mit.edu/Scratch_1.4_Source_GPL
>
> While the Scratch source code has long been available under the Scratch
> Source Code License, we decided to re-release it under the GPL to make it
> easier for distros like Red Hat and Ubuntu to make Scratch available in
> their repositories.
>
> Many thanks to all who have contributed their efforts to helping Scratch run
> on free open source platforms.  And special thanks Eben Moglen and the
> Software Freedom Law Center for drafting our Trademark policy, which made
> this release possible.
>
> Scratch On!
> Amos Blanton
> Scratch Team
>
>

Yay! I'm going to package it for Debian

Thanks,
Miry

Message #50 received at 471927@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Miriam Ruiz <miriam@debian.org>

To: submit@bugs.debian.org, 471927@bugs.debian.org

Subject: ITP: scratch

Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 22:34:22 +0200

retitle 471927 ITP: scratch -- easy programming environment designed for kids
owner 471927 miriam@debian.org

thanks

Scratch 1.4 has gone GPL [1], so I plan to package it

Greetings,
Miry

[1] http://info.scratch.mit.edu/Scratch_1.4_Source_GPL

Message #59 received at 471927@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Allison Randal <allison@lohutok.net>

To: Miriam Ruiz <miriam@debian.org>, Amos Blanton <amos@scratch.mit.edu>, Debian Bugs <471927@bugs.debian.org>

Subject: Re: [Scratch] Scratch 1.4 source code released under GPL v2

Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 19:35:02 -0700

> 2012/3/28 Amos Blanton <amos@scratch.mit.edu>:
>> The Scratch Team has re-released the Scratch 1.4 source code under the GPL
>> v2.

This is great news! :)

On 03/28/2012 01:34 PM, Miriam Ruiz wrote:
> Yay! I'm going to package it for Debian

Double-check on the DFSG and the Scratch trademark policy. The code
itself will be fine under the DFSG, but the trademark policy may not
satisfy "The license must allow modifications and derived works, and
must allow them to be distributed under the same terms as the license of
the original software."

Worst-case, Debian would just need to use a different name/logo, like it
does with Iceweasel and Icedove.

Allison

Message #64 received at 471927@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Amos Blanton <amos@scratch.mit.edu>

To: Allison Randal <allison@lohutok.net>

Cc: Miriam Ruiz <miriam@debian.org>, Debian Bugs <471927@bugs.debian.org>

Subject: Re: [Scratch] Scratch 1.4 source code released under GPL v2

Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 23:09:48 -0400

On 03/28/2012 10:35 PM, Allison Randal wrote:
> Double-check on the DFSG and the Scratch trademark policy. The code 
> itself will be fine under the DFSG, but the trademark policy may not 
> satisfy "The license must allow modifications and derived works, and 
> must allow them to be distributed under the same terms as the license 
> of the original software." Worst-case, Debian would just need to use a 
> different name/logo, like it does with Iceweasel and Icedove.

Hi Allison,

Mako Hill was kind enough to gather some suggestions related to our 
policy from an IRC chat with some debian folks. We're reviewing these 
suggestions, and anticipate making some clarifications soon. I'll send 
an update to this list when we do.

I really hope we won't have to do the iceweasel thing, and my 
understanding is that our trademark policy does not conflict with the DFSG.

-Amos

>
> Allison

Message #69 received at 471927@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Amos Blanton <amos@scratch.mit.edu>

To: Allison Randal <allison@lohutok.net>, Miriam Ruiz <miriam@debian.org>

Cc: Debian Bugs <471927@bugs.debian.org>, "Benj. Mako Hill" <mako@mit.edu>

Subject: Re: [Scratch] Scratch 1.4 source code released under GPL v2

Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 16:42:22 -0400

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

Hi Allison, Miry -

We've made some changes to page that describes the source code on our site,
and also made a minor update to a license file in the source package, all
based on suggestions from Mako Hill and friends from the free software
community.

http://info.scratch.mit.edu/Source_Code

I hope we can alleviate any concerns folks at Debian might have about
making Scratch available in the Debian repositories. Don't hesitate to
contact me if you have questions or concerns.

-Amos

On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 11:09 PM, Amos Blanton <amos@scratch.mit.edu> wrote:

> On 03/28/2012 10:35 PM, Allison Randal wrote:
>
>> Double-check on the DFSG and the Scratch trademark policy. The code
>> itself will be fine under the DFSG, but the trademark policy may not
>> satisfy "The license must allow modifications and derived works, and must
>> allow them to be distributed under the same terms as the license of the
>> original software." Worst-case, Debian would just need to use a different
>> name/logo, like it does with Iceweasel and Icedove.
>>
>
> Hi Allison,
>
> Mako Hill was kind enough to gather some suggestions related to our policy
> from an IRC chat with some debian folks. We're reviewing these suggestions,
> and anticipate making some clarifications soon. I'll send an update to this
> list when we do.
>
> I really hope we won't have to do the iceweasel thing, and my
> understanding is that our trademark policy does not conflict with the DFSG.
>
> -Amos
>
>
>> Allison
>>
>


-- 
_____
Amos

[Message part 2 (text/html, inline)]

Message #74 received at 471927@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Miriam Ruiz <miriam@debian.org>

To: Allison Randal <allison@ubuntu.com>

Cc: scratch@lists.launchpad.net, linux@scratch.mit.edu, 471927@bugs.debian.org

Subject: Re: [Scratch] Scratch 1.4 source code released under GPL v2

Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2012 01:10:48 +0200

2012/3/30 Allison Randal <allison@ubuntu.com>:
> >From the Ubuntu side, my only question is how far along are the changes
> to run on the Ubuntu squeak packages instead of bundling a version of
> the squeak VM in the scratch packages? I see the work mainly around
> revisions 78-79 in the scratch packaging svn on Assembla:

It works for me with squeak-vm 4.0.3.2202 (squeeze) but when trying to
run it on squeak-vm 4.4.7 (wheezy) I just get a black screen [1] [2]

According to jredrejo, the modification causing this problem might be
related to the changes made to the squeak-vm to be able to run it with
composite managers and compiz.

Greetings,
Miry

[1] http://scratch.mit.edu/forums/viewtopic.php?id=78617
[2] http://www.raspberrypi.org/forum/educational-applications/scratch-on-raspberry-pi-and-other-linuxes

Message #79 received at 471927@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Allison Randal <allison@ubuntu.com>

To: Miriam Ruiz <miriam@debian.org>

Cc: scratch@lists.launchpad.net, linux@scratch.mit.edu, 471927@bugs.debian.org

Subject: Re: [Scratch] Scratch 1.4 source code released under GPL v2

Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 17:00:57 -0700

On 03/30/2012 04:10 PM, Miriam Ruiz wrote:
> It works for me with squeak-vm 4.0.3.2202 (squeeze) but when trying to
> run it on squeak-vm 4.4.7 (wheezy) I just get a black screen [1] [2]
> 
> According to jredrejo, the modification causing this problem might be
> related to the changes made to the squeak-vm to be able to run it with
> composite managers and compiz.

Okay, makes sense. Ubuntu is shipping squeak-vm 4.4.7 in both Oneiric
and Precise, so we'd have to wait on a fix for this too.

Allison

Message #84 received at 471927@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: "Benj. Mako Hill" <mako@debian.org>

To: Amos Blanton <amos@scratch.mit.edu>

Cc: Allison Randal <allison@lohutok.net>, Miriam Ruiz <miriam@debian.org>, Debian Bugs <471927@bugs.debian.org>

Subject: Re: [Scratch] Scratch 1.4 source code released under GPL v2

Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2012 00:06:58 -0400

<quote who="Amos Blanton" date="Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 04:42:22PM -0400">
> We've made some changes to page that describes the source code on our site,
> and also made a minor update to a license file in the source package, all
> based on suggestions from Mako Hill and friends from the free software
> community.
> 
> http://info.scratch.mit.edu/Source_Code
> 
> I hope we can alleviate any concerns folks at Debian might have about
> making Scratch available in the Debian repositories. Don't hesitate to
> contact me if you have questions or concerns.

I'm pretty sure that the changes to the website make it clear that the
website terms of use and the trademark license are not additional
copyright terms.

I also think that the current text describing the trademark license
make it clear that re-packaging is fine while using the marks (it
says as much) so I don't forsee that this will be a problem getting
things into Debian.

Of course, folks should know that changes to the license were done in
order to help Scratch into Debian, Ubuntu, Fedora, etc. If there
happen to be any lingering concerns, we can probably work with the
Scratch team to get them address.

Thanks to Miry and everyone else whose working on this! I'm really
looking forward to finally getting Scratch in Debian!

Later,
Mako


-- 
Benjamin Mako Hill
mako@debian.org
http://mako.cc/

Creativity can be a social contribution, but only in so far
as society is free to use the results. --GNU Manifesto

Message #89 received at 471927@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Miriam Ruiz <miriam@debian.org>

To: Allison Randal <allison@ubuntu.com>, Amos Blanton <amos@scratch.mit.edu>, 471927@bugs.debian.org

Cc: scratch@lists.launchpad.net, linux@scratch.mit.edu

Subject: Re: Bug#471927: [Scratch] Scratch 1.4 source code released under GPL v2

Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2012 12:01:29 +0200

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

2012/3/31 Allison Randal <allison@ubuntu.com>:
> On 03/30/2012 04:10 PM, Miriam Ruiz wrote:
>> It works for me with squeak-vm 4.0.3.2202 (squeeze) but when trying to
>> run it on squeak-vm 4.4.7 (wheezy) I just get a black screen [1] [2]
>>
>> According to jredrejo, the modification causing this problem might be
>> related to the changes made to the squeak-vm to be able to run it with
>> composite managers and compiz.
>
> Okay, makes sense. Ubuntu is shipping squeak-vm 4.4.7 in both Oneiric
> and Precise, so we'd have to wait on a fix for this too.

Hi,

According to strace, when running scratch on the latest squeak-vm the
system seems to be waiting forever to several resources that do not
exist:
- /usr/share/icons/DMZ-White/cursors/041870e1c79f7f3e7cc8030618300000
- /usr/share/pixmaps/DMZ-White/cursors/041870e1c79f7f3e7cc8030618300000
- /home/inniyah/.icons/DMZ-White/cursors/041870e1c79f7f3e7cc8030618300000

The funny thing is that it seems that the older machine was also
looking for them, and didn't find them, but kept trying for a couple
of times and then went on. I don't know where these numbers come from,
¿any ideas?

Greetings and thanks,
Miry

PS: I'm attaching a file with part of the results when running the program

[output (application/octet-stream, attachment)]

Message #94 received at 471927@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Miriam Ruiz <miriam@debian.org>

To: "Benj. Mako Hill" <mako@debian.org>

Cc: Amos Blanton <amos@scratch.mit.edu>, Allison Randal <allison@lohutok.net>, Debian Bugs <471927@bugs.debian.org>

Subject: Re: [Scratch] Scratch 1.4 source code released under GPL v2

Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2012 12:08:17 +0200

2012/4/4 Benj. Mako Hill <mako@debian.org>:
> I'm pretty sure that the changes to the website make it clear that the
> website terms of use and the trademark license are not additional
> copyright terms.
>
> I also think that the current text describing the trademark license
> make it clear that re-packaging is fine while using the marks (it
> says as much) so I don't forsee that this will be a problem getting
> things into Debian.

Yup, I agree with your POV here. I don't expect big problems from
ftpmasters, I hope we're right :)

> Of course, folks should know that changes to the license were done in
> order to help Scratch into Debian, Ubuntu, Fedora, etc. If there
> happen to be any lingering concerns, we can probably work with the
> Scratch team to get them address.

Yup, Definitely!

> Thanks to Miry and everyone else whose working on this! I'm really
> looking forward to finally getting Scratch in Debian!

Lots of thanks to you too!!! I hope to be able to make it work
properly in latest squeak-vm soon!!! :)

Greetings,
Miry

Message #99 received at 471927@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Miriam Ruiz <miriam@debian.org>

To: Michael Hanke <mih@debian.org>

Cc: 471927@bugs.debian.org, "Benj. Mako Hill" <mako@debian.org>, Amos Blanton <amos@scratch.mit.edu>, Allison Randal <allison@lohutok.net>

Subject: Re: Bug#471927: [Scratch] Scratch 1.4 source code released under GPL v2

Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2012 14:18:32 +0200

2012/4/4 Michael Hanke <mih@debian.org>:
> On Wed, Apr 04, 2012 at 12:08:17PM +0200, Miriam Ruiz wrote:
>> 2012/4/4 Benj. Mako Hill <mako@debian.org>:
>> > I also think that the current text describing the trademark license
>> > make it clear that re-packaging is fine while using the marks (it
>> > says as much) so I don't forsee that this will be a problem getting
>> > things into Debian.
>>
>> Yup, I agree with your POV here. I don't expect big problems from
>> ftpmasters, I hope we're right :)
>
> A more fundamental issue could be a potential show stopper. Take a look
> at the etoys package -- technically similar, FOSS license, but still in
> non-free. Below a full quote from the source package's README.nonfree:

As long as the image itself is the source the preferred format for
modification) and is included in the package with a free license, my
opinion is that DFSG's are fulfilled. If ftpmasters don't see it that
way, we'll have to push the conflict upwards. I don't plan on
uploading it to non-free, as it is indeed a free package.

Lets wait and see, though, and move from there when/if it happens. For
the moment I'm more concerned about making it work with latest
squeak-vm :)

Greetings and thanks,
Miry

Message #104 received at 471927@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Michael Hanke <mih@debian.org>

To: Miriam Ruiz <miriam@debian.org>, 471927@bugs.debian.org

Cc: "Benj. Mako Hill" <mako@debian.org>, Amos Blanton <amos@scratch.mit.edu>, Allison Randal <allison@lohutok.net>

Subject: Re: Bug#471927: [Scratch] Scratch 1.4 source code released under GPL v2

Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2012 14:08:14 +0200

On Wed, Apr 04, 2012 at 12:08:17PM +0200, Miriam Ruiz wrote:
> 2012/4/4 Benj. Mako Hill <mako@debian.org>:
> > I also think that the current text describing the trademark license
> > make it clear that re-packaging is fine while using the marks (it
> > says as much) so I don't forsee that this will be a problem getting
> > things into Debian.
> 
> Yup, I agree with your POV here. I don't expect big problems from
> ftpmasters, I hope we're right :)

A more fundamental issue could be a potential show stopper. Take a look
at the etoys package -- technically similar, FOSS license, but still in
non-free. Below a full quote from the source package's README.nonfree:

	Why is EToys in non-free?
	=========================

	EToys was rejected from inclusion in the Debian main archive, because the
	ftpmasters don't consider the sources as source. ;) Since we unsuccessfully
	tried to convince them that EToys belongs into main already and the time until
	Lenny will be frozen is short, I decided to upload it to non-free, for the
	benefit of the users (so they can simply use apt-get to install etoys, provided 
	they have non-free in their sources), even though we believe it satisfies all 
	the requirements of the DFSG [1] and policy [2].  For Lenny+1 we plan to 
	convince the ftpmasters to accept it in main.


	Let me explain the source situation:
	 
	EToys comes as an "image", a snapshot of all objects, which 
	is loaded into a squeakvm, modified in memory, and snapshotted to
	an image file again. This image cannot easily be rebuilt from pure source
	code, but the snapshots do contain all the source code. The image is
	the "preferred form of modification" for the EToys developer community,
	this is how they work [3].
	 
	The Etoys image is derived from a Squeak image which is derived from a
	Smalltalk image back to 1976, when the actual bootstrapping happened. This
	is in contrast to how some Lisps work, they do a lengthy bootstrap from
	source and then do a memory snapshot so they can skip the initialization
	at startup time. To modify that snapshot, one changes the code and rebuilds 
	the snapshot. But in Smalltalk, to modify the snapshot all the source code
	tools "patch" live object memory directly. So we think this kind of source
	form is enough to satisfy the DFSG.
	 
	Squeak source code in text form can be seen, shared and modified from within 
	the squeakvm. That's what everybody does with Squeak source code. The changes 
	are then either available as "change sets" or as "Monticello" packages (a 
	version control system for Smalltalk code, see [4]), and can be distributed 
	separatly or used to create derived versions of the modified blobs. But while
	this works for small changes, this isn't practical to rebuild a complete image.
	 

	 [1] http://www.debian.org/social_contract#guidelines
	 [2] file:///usr/share/doc/debian-policy/policy.html
	 [3] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2008-May/128753.html
	 [4] http://www.wiresong.ca/Monticello/


	Holger Levsen, 2008-06-13

-- 
Michael Hanke
http://mih.voxindeserto.de

Message #109 received at 471927@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Amos Blanton <amos@scratch.mit.edu>

To: Miriam Ruiz <miriam@debian.org>

Cc: Michael Hanke <mih@debian.org>, 471927@bugs.debian.org, "Benj. Mako Hill" <mako@debian.org>, Allison Randal <allison@lohutok.net>, Bert Freudenberg <bert@freudenbergs.de>

Subject: Re: Bug#471927: [Scratch] Scratch 1.4 source code released under GPL v2

Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2012 14:08:22 -0400

[Message part 1 (text/html, inline)]

Message #114 received at 471927@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: "Benj. Mako Hill" <mako@atdot.cc>

To: Michael Hanke <mih@debian.org>

Cc: Miriam Ruiz <miriam@debian.org>, 471927@bugs.debian.org, Amos Blanton <amos@scratch.mit.edu>, Allison Randal <allison@lohutok.net>

Subject: Re: Bug#471927: [Scratch] Scratch 1.4 source code released under GPL v2

Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2012 14:24:25 -0400

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

<quote who="Michael Hanke" date="Wed, Apr 04, 2012 at 02:08:14PM +0200">
> A more fundamental issue could be a potential show stopper. Take a look
> at the etoys package -- technically similar, FOSS license, but still in
> non-free.

This sounds like confusion. In any case, the FTP masters are a
different group now and I think this is tractable.

Regards,
Mako


-- 
Benjamin Mako Hill
mako@atdot.cc
http://mako.cc/

Creativity can be a social contribution, but only in so far
as society is free to use the results. --GNU Manifesto

[signature.asc (application/pgp-signature, inline)]

Message #119 received at 471927@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Amos Blanton <amos@scratch.mit.edu>

To: Miriam Ruiz <miriam@debian.org>

Cc: Allison Randal <allison@ubuntu.com>, 471927@bugs.debian.org, scratch@lists.launchpad.net, linux@scratch.mit.edu

Subject: Re: Bug#471927: [Scratch] Scratch 1.4 source code released under GPL v2

Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2012 10:28:47 -0400

On 04/04/2012 06:01 AM, Miriam Ruiz wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> According to strace, when running scratch on the latest squeak-vm the
> system seems to be waiting forever to several resources that do not
> exist:
> - /usr/share/icons/DMZ-White/cursors/041870e1c79f7f3e7cc8030618300000
> - /usr/share/pixmaps/DMZ-White/cursors/041870e1c79f7f3e7cc8030618300000
> - /home/inniyah/.icons/DMZ-White/cursors/041870e1c79f7f3e7cc8030618300000
>
> The funny thing is that it seems that the older machine was also
> looking for them, and didn't find them, but kept trying for a couple
> of times and then went on. I don't know where these numbers come from,
> ¿any ideas?

Hi Miry,
I asked John Maloney, the lead developer of Scratch, and he said that 
those cursor paths aren't part of the Scratch code. So it sounds like 
it's a VM issue.

Sorry we can't be more helpful...

-Amos

Message #124 received at 471927@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Miriam Ruiz <miriam@debian.org>

To: Amos Blanton <amos@scratch.mit.edu>

Cc: Allison Randal <allison@ubuntu.com>, 471927@bugs.debian.org, scratch@lists.launchpad.net, linux@scratch.mit.edu

Subject: Re: Bug#471927: [Scratch] Scratch 1.4 source code released under GPL v2

Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2012 17:20:44 +0200

2012/4/5 Amos Blanton <amos@scratch.mit.edu>:

>> According to strace, when running scratch on the latest squeak-vm the
>> system seems to be waiting forever to several resources that do not
>> exist:
>> - /usr/share/icons/DMZ-White/cursors/041870e1c79f7f3e7cc8030618300000
>> - /usr/share/pixmaps/DMZ-White/cursors/041870e1c79f7f3e7cc8030618300000
>> - /home/inniyah/.icons/DMZ-White/cursors/041870e1c79f7f3e7cc8030618300000
>>
>> The funny thing is that it seems that the older machine was also
>> looking for them, and didn't find them, but kept trying for a couple
>> of times and then went on. I don't know where these numbers come from,
>> żany ideas?
>
> Hi Miry,
> I asked John Maloney, the lead developer of Scratch, and he said that those
> cursor paths aren't part of the Scratch code. So it sounds like it's a VM
> issue.
>
> Sorry we can't be more helpful...

Lots of thanks, knowing that the problem does not lay within Scratch
itself is indeed very useful :)

Greetings,
Miry

Message #129 received at 471927@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Miriam Ruiz <miriam@debian.org>

To: Amos Blanton <amos@scratch.mit.edu>

Cc: Michael Hanke <mih@debian.org>, 471927@bugs.debian.org, Allison Randal <allison@lohutok.net>, "Benj. Mako Hill" <mako@atdot.cc>

Subject: Re: Bug#471927: [Scratch] Scratch 1.4 source code released under GPL v2

Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2012 17:35:17 +0200

I've just found out something that might be a problem:

Scratch Support materials (/Help), sample Media files (/Media), and
sample projects (/Projects), are licensed under the Creative Commons
Attribution-ShareAlike 2.0 Generic (CC BY-SA 2.0) license. To view a
copy of this license, visit
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/2.0/ or send a letter to
Creative Commons, 444 Castro Street, Suite 900, Mountain View,
California, 94041, USA.

While Debian recognizes as DFSG-free CC BY-SA 3.0, there were AFAIK
issues with the version 2.0 of the license that were considered not
DFSG-free. Would there be any possibility of relicensing this stuff as
CC BY-SA 3.0 instead of the current 2.0 version?

Greetings and thanks,
Miry

PS: I'll keep working on the latest VM issues meanwhile.

Message #134 received at 471927@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Amos Blanton <amos@scratch.mit.edu>

To: Miriam Ruiz <miriam@debian.org>

Cc: Michael Hanke <mih@debian.org>, 471927@bugs.debian.org, Allison Randal <allison@lohutok.net>, "Benj. Mako Hill" <mako@atdot.cc>

Subject: Re: Bug#471927: [Scratch] Scratch 1.4 source code released under GPL v2

Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2012 13:32:44 -0400

No problem. The license will be updated in the next version of the 
source package: 1.4.0.5. (Which I will release as soon as I address 
other small issues that have come up.)

If you find anything else, let me know.

On 04/05/2012 11:35 AM, Miriam Ruiz wrote:
> I've just found out something that might be a problem:
>
> Scratch Support materials (/Help), sample Media files (/Media), and
> sample projects (/Projects), are licensed under the Creative Commons
> Attribution-ShareAlike 2.0 Generic (CC BY-SA 2.0) license. To view a
> copy of this license, visit
> http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/2.0/ or send a letter to
> Creative Commons, 444 Castro Street, Suite 900, Mountain View,
> California, 94041, USA.
>
> While Debian recognizes as DFSG-free CC BY-SA 3.0, there were AFAIK
> issues with the version 2.0 of the license that were considered not
> DFSG-free. Would there be any possibility of relicensing this stuff as
> CC BY-SA 3.0 instead of the current 2.0 version?
>
> Greetings and thanks,
> Miry
>
> PS: I'll keep working on the latest VM issues meanwhile.

Message #139 received at 471927@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Miriam Ruiz <miriam@debian.org>

To: "Derek O'Connell" <doc@doconnel.f9.co.uk>

Cc: 471927@bugs.debian.org

Subject: Re: [Scratch] Bug#471927: Scratch 1.4 source code released under GPL v2

Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2012 17:54:49 +0200

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

2012/4/5 Derek O'Connell <doc@doconnel.f9.co.uk>:

> I'm having a quick dig but already in unfamiliar territory. It looks like
> the attempts to open non-existent files is not the vm but normal libXcursor
> behaviour (hash from cached images). So while it may still be related to
> delays it's not certain. Could you run strace again and add option to
> display time -t/tt? Also use option to increase length of strings, say "-s
> 64", since I also notice the string on line 70 appears longer than when you
> cat /usr/share/icons/default/index.theme on lines 80/81. Full strace might
> also have some clues (abort if taking too long).

Of course, I've attached the resulting logs of executing:

$ strace -s 64 -tt /usr/lib/squeak/4.4.7-2357/squeakvm -encoding UTF-8
-vm-display-x11 -xshm -plugins
/usr/lib/scratch/plugins/:/usr/lib/squeak/4.4.7-2357/ -vm-sound-oss
/usr/share/scratch/Scratch.image 2> strace-log.txt

$ ltrace -s 64 -tt /usr/lib/squeak/4.4.7-2357/squeakvm -encoding UTF-8
-vm-display-x11 -xshm -plugins
/usr/lib/scratch/plugins/:/usr/lib/squeak/4.4.7-2357/ -vm-sound-oss
/usr/share/scratch/Scratch.image 2> ltrace-log.txt

I can also confirm that the problem is in the VM itself, and not the
plugins. Running the newer VM with older plugins does not work
(obtained from Debian packages squeak-vm_4.0.3.2202-2_amd64.deb and
squeak-vm_4.0.3.2202-2_amd64.deb), while running the older VM with the
latest plugins works perfectly.

If you're right about normal cursor behaviour, then it might be that
the VM keeps running an endless loop in which cursors are tried to be
set up.

Greetings and thanks,
Miry

PS: I'm CC the bug report in BTS, just in case someone is interested
or has a clue :)

[strace-log.txt (text/plain, attachment)]

[ltrace-log.txt (text/plain, attachment)]

Message #144 received at 471927@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Miriam Ruiz <miriam@debian.org>

To: Amos Blanton <amos@scratch.mit.edu>

Cc: Michael Hanke <mih@debian.org>, 471927@bugs.debian.org, Allison Randal <allison@lohutok.net>, "Benj. Mako Hill" <mako@atdot.cc>

Subject: Re: Bug#471927: [Scratch] Scratch 1.4 source code released under GPL v2

Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2012 21:06:00 +0200

2012/4/5 Amos Blanton <amos@scratch.mit.edu>:
> No problem. The license will be updated in the next version of the source
> package: 1.4.0.5. (Which I will release as soon as I address other small
> issues that have come up.)
>
> If you find anything else, let me know.

Cool! You're great! :)

Greetings,
Miry

Message #149 received at 471927@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Miriam Ruiz <miriam@debian.org>

To: Bert Freudenberg <bert@freudenbergs.de>

Cc: "Derek O'Connell" <doc@doconnel.f9.co.uk>, Ian Piumarta <piumarta@speakeasy.net>, "scratch@lists.launchpad.net" <scratch@lists.launchpad.net>, 471927@bugs.debian.org

Subject: Re: [Scratch] Fwd: Re: Bug#471927: Scratch 1.4 source code released under GPL v2

Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2012 05:44:38 +0200

2012/4/5 Bert Freudenberg <bert@freudenbergs.de>:
> Unless things changed recently (and I don't think they did), the Squeak VM uses none of the stock cursors or is concerned with themeing. I suspect a local misconfiguration.

Fair enough, but I cannot get Scratch to work with latest Squeak VM in
any of my computers (64 and 32 bits). Could any of you try it in your
computers to check whether is a local problem of mine? Is your strace
noticeabily different from mine?

Whatever the problem is, I don't seem to be the only one facing it:
- http://scratch.mit.edu/forums/viewtopic.php?id=78617
- http://www.raspberrypi.org/forum/educational-applications/scratch-on-raspberry-pi-and-other-linuxes

To sum it up, it works for me, in all of my computers, with
http://packages.debian.org/squeeze/squeak-vm , but it doesn't work
with http://packages.debian.org/sid/squeak-vm

Greetings and thanks,
Miry

Message #154 received at 471927@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Miriam Ruiz <miriam@debian.org>

To: Bert Freudenberg <bert@freudenbergs.de>

Cc: "Derek O'Connell" <doc@doconnel.f9.co.uk>, Ian Piumarta <piumarta@speakeasy.net>, "scratch@lists.launchpad.net" <scratch@lists.launchpad.net>, 471927@bugs.debian.org

Subject: Re: [Scratch] Fwd: Re: Bug#471927: Scratch 1.4 source code released under GPL v2

Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2012 05:50:54 +0200

2012/4/6 Miriam Ruiz <miriam@debian.org>:
> 2012/4/5 Bert Freudenberg <bert@freudenbergs.de>:
>> Unless things changed recently (and I don't think they did), the Squeak VM uses none of the stock cursors or is concerned with themeing. I suspect a local misconfiguration.
>
> Fair enough, but I cannot get Scratch to work with latest Squeak VM in
> any of my computers (64 and 32 bits). Could any of you try it in your
> computers to check whether is a local problem of mine? Is your strace
> noticeabily different from mine?
>
> Whatever the problem is, I don't seem to be the only one facing it:
> - http://scratch.mit.edu/forums/viewtopic.php?id=78617
> - http://www.raspberrypi.org/forum/educational-applications/scratch-on-raspberry-pi-and-other-linuxes
>
> To sum it up, it works for me, in all of my computers, with
> http://packages.debian.org/squeeze/squeak-vm , but it doesn't work
> with http://packages.debian.org/sid/squeak-vm

Just for the record, I've also tried it with the binary VM obtained
from http://squeakvm.org/unix/ and it doesn't work either. Same
problem.

lib/squeak/4.4.7-2357/squeakvm -encoding UTF-8 -vm-display-x11 -xshm
-plugins /usr/lib/scratch/plugins/:lib/squeak/4.4.7-2357/
-vm-sound-oss /usr/share/scratch/Scratch.image

Greetings,
Miry

Message #159 received at 471927@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Amos Blanton <amos@scratch.mit.edu>

To: 471927@bugs.debian.org, "scratch@lists.launchpad.net" <scratch@lists.launchpad.net>

Subject: Re: [Scratch] Fwd: Re: Bug#471927: Scratch 1.4 source code released under GPL v2

Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2012 17:18:37 -0400

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

Source package updated to 1.4.0.5, now available here:
http://info.scratch.mit.edu/GPLv2_Licensed_Scratch_Code

Recent changes:
Includes Squeak changes file
Instructions for downloading / installing Squeak sources file added to
readme
Changed license on included media  to DFSG compatible Share-alike license
(CC BY-SA 3.0) for included media / help files

Thanks to Bert and Miry for pointing out the need for these changes. :)

On Thu, Apr 5, 2012 at 11:50 PM, Miriam Ruiz <miriam@debian.org> wrote:

> 2012/4/6 Miriam Ruiz <miriam@debian.org>:
> > 2012/4/5 Bert Freudenberg <bert@freudenbergs.de>:
> >> Unless things changed recently (and I don't think they did), the Squeak
> VM uses none of the stock cursors or is concerned with themeing. I suspect
> a local misconfiguration.
> >
> > Fair enough, but I cannot get Scratch to work with latest Squeak VM in
> > any of my computers (64 and 32 bits). Could any of you try it in your
> > computers to check whether is a local problem of mine? Is your strace
> > noticeabily different from mine?
> >
> > Whatever the problem is, I don't seem to be the only one facing it:
> > - http://scratch.mit.edu/forums/viewtopic.php?id=78617
> > -
> http://www.raspberrypi.org/forum/educational-applications/scratch-on-raspberry-pi-and-other-linuxes
> >
> > To sum it up, it works for me, in all of my computers, with
> > http://packages.debian.org/squeeze/squeak-vm , but it doesn't work
> > with http://packages.debian.org/sid/squeak-vm
>
> Just for the record, I've also tried it with the binary VM obtained
> from http://squeakvm.org/unix/ and it doesn't work either. Same
> problem.
>
> lib/squeak/4.4.7-2357/squeakvm -encoding UTF-8 -vm-display-x11 -xshm
> -plugins /usr/lib/scratch/plugins/:lib/squeak/4.4.7-2357/
> -vm-sound-oss /usr/share/scratch/Scratch.image
>
> Greetings,
> Miry
>
> _______________________________________________
> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~scratch
> Post to     : scratch@lists.launchpad.net
> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~scratch
> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>



-- 
_____
Amos

[Message part 2 (text/html, inline)]

Message #164 received at 471927@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Amos Blanton <amos@scratch.mit.edu>

To: 471927@bugs.debian.org

Cc: Linux Scratch <linux@scratch.mit.edu>, scratch@lists.launchpad.net

Subject: [Scratch] Fwd: Re: Bug#471927: Scratch 1.4 source code released under GPL v2

Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2012 22:16:29 -0400

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

Just found the time to try to reproduce the issue Miry pointed out  - blank
screen when running with later VM. I'm experiencing the same thing, Ubuntu
12.04 (64 bit) squeak 4.4.7-2357.

Perhaps we should revert to the strategy of bundling our own (old) squeak
vm? Or perhaps we can require, as a dependency, the squeeze version of
squeak..
..but that might break etoys. :/

On Thu, Apr 5, 2012 at 11:50 PM, Miriam Ruiz <miriam@debian.org> wrote:

>
> > Whatever the problem is, I don't seem to be the only one facing it:
> > - http://scratch.mit.edu/forums/viewtopic.php?id=78617
> > -
> http://www.raspberrypi.org/forum/educational-applications/scratch-on-raspberry-pi-and-other-linuxes
> >
> > To sum it up, it works for me, in all of my computers, with
> > http://packages.debian.org/squeeze/squeak-vm , but it doesn't work
> > with http://packages.debian.org/sid/squeak-vm
>
> Just for the record, I've also tried it with the binary VM obtained
> from http://squeakvm.org/unix/ and it doesn't work either. Same
> problem.
>
> lib/squeak/4.4.7-2357/squeakvm -encoding UTF-8 -vm-display-x11 -xshm
> -plugins /usr/lib/scratch/plugins/:lib/squeak/4.4.7-2357/
> -vm-sound-oss /usr/share/scratch/Scratch.image
>
> Greetings,
> Miry
>
> _______________________________________________
> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~scratch
> Post to     : scratch@lists.launchpad.net
> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~scratch
> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>

[Message part 2 (text/html, inline)]

Message #169 received at 471927@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Miriam Ruiz <miriam@debian.org>

To: Debian Bugs <471927@bugs.debian.org>

Subject: tracing functions

Date: Sat, 5 May 2012 03:09:56 +0200

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

I've compiled the VM with gcc -finstrument-functions (without
stripping the resulting binary, of course), as described in [1], and
got this resulting trace.txt file by calling it with:

squeakvm -encoding UTF-8 -vm-display-x11 -xshm -plugins
/usr/lib/scratch/plugins/:/usr/lib/squeak/4.0.3-2202/ -vm-sound-oss
/usr/share/scratch/Scratch.image

and afterwards:

./readtracelog.sh squeakvm trace.out > trace.txt

The resulting file shows that the program seems to be stuck in the
following cycle:

[...]
Enter initializeObjectMemory at 2012-05-05T02:52:56+0200, called from
initializeInterpreter (gnu-interp.c:5518)
Enter adjustAllOopsBy at 2012-05-05T02:52:56+0200, called from
initializeObjectMemory (gnu-interp.c:5659)
Enter lastPointerOf at 2012-05-05T02:52:56+0200, called from
adjustAllOopsBy (gnu-interp.c:1826)
Exit  lastPointerOf at 2012-05-05T02:52:56+0200
Enter lastPointerOf at 2012-05-05T02:52:56+0200, called from
adjustAllOopsBy (gnu-interp.c:1826)
Exit  lastPointerOf at 2012-05-05T02:52:56+0200
Enter lastPointerOf at 2012-05-05T02:52:56+0200, called from
adjustAllOopsBy (gnu-interp.c:1826)
Exit  lastPointerOf at 2012-05-05T02:52:56+0200
[...]

I still need to have a look at the code to find out what it means. It
is already quite late for me.

Greetings,
Miry

[1] http://balau82.wordpress.com/2010/10/06/trace-and-profile-function-calls-with-gcc/

[trace.txt (text/plain, attachment)]

[trace.diff (application/octet-stream, attachment)]

[readtracelog.sh (application/x-sh, attachment)]

Message #174 received at 471927@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Miriam Ruiz <miriam@debian.org>

To: Debian Bugs <471927@bugs.debian.org>

Subject: Re: tracing functions

Date: Sat, 5 May 2012 03:14:53 +0200

Just for the record, the piece of code that seems to keep looping
forever is in the file ./build-tree/gnu-interp.c, which is
automatically generated in the building process

[...]
	if (bytesToShift == 0) {
		return 300000;
	}
	totalObjects = 0;
	oop = memory + (foo->headerTypeBytes[(longAt(memory)) & TypeMask]);
	while ((((usqInt) oop)) < (((usqInt) foo->endOfMemory))) {
		if (!(((longAt(oop)) & TypeMask) == HeaderTypeFree)) {
			totalObjects += 1;
			/* begin adjustFieldsAndClassOf:by: */
			if (bytesToShift == 0) {
				goto l1;
			}
			fieldAddr = oop + (lastPointerOf(oop));  // This is gnu-interp.c:1826 !!!
			while ((((usqInt) fieldAddr)) > (((usqInt) oop))) {
				fieldOop = longAt(fieldAddr);
				if (!((fieldOop & 1))) {
					longAtput(fieldAddr, fieldOop + bytesToShift);
				}
				fieldAddr -= BYTES_PER_WORD;
			}
			if (((longAt(oop)) & TypeMask) != HeaderTypeShort) {
				classHeader = longAt(oop - (BYTES_PER_WORD));
				newClassOop = (classHeader & (ALL_BUT_TYPE_MASK)) + bytesToShift;
				longAtput(oop - (BYTES_PER_WORD), newClassOop | (classHeader & TypeMask));
			}
		l1:	/* end adjustFieldsAndClassOf:by: */;
		}
[...]

Greetings,
Miry

Message #179 received at 471927@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Miriam Ruiz <miriam@debian.org>

To: Debian Bugs <471927@bugs.debian.org>

Subject: Thread in Squeak ML

Date: Thu, 10 May 2012 10:00:16 +0200

For those interested in this thread, you might also want to have a
look at http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/vm-dev/2012-May/010551.html

Greetings,
Miry

Message #184 received at 471927@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Bert Freudenberg <bert@freudenbergs.de>

To: scratch@lists.launchpad.net

Cc: Alex Bradbury <asb@asbradbury.org>, 471927@bugs.debian.org, John Maloney <jmaloney@media.mit.edu>, Squeak Virtual Machine Development Discussion <vm-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org>

Subject: Re: [Vm-dev] Help/advice tracking down a squeak-vm regression

Date: Fri, 11 May 2012 17:54:22 +0200

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

I fixed it. Did not do extensive testing, but with the fixed image, Scratch works with 32 bit Ubuntu's 4.4.7 Squeak VM.

Attached is a change set. Basically I did again what Andreas did on 2/2/2001 - replaced the 90 indexed primitive declarations with their named counterpart. I did not copy the current Squeak versions, to avoid any side effects.

Also, here is a fixed image+changes for easy testing (will go away in a few days):

	http://dl.dropbox.com/u/9643745/tmp/scratch-1.4.0.5-bf.zip

- Bert -

[namedPrims-bf.2.cs.gz (application/x-gzip, attachment)]

Message #189 received at 471927@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: John Maloney <jmaloney@media.mit.edu>

To: Bert Freudenberg <bert@freudenbergs.de>

Cc: scratch@lists.launchpad.net, Alex Bradbury <asb@asbradbury.org>, 471927@bugs.debian.org, Squeak Virtual Machine Development Discussion <vm-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org>

Subject: Re: [Vm-dev] Help/advice tracking down a squeak-vm regression

Date: Fri, 11 May 2012 13:47:23 -0400

Bert -- this is wonderful! Thank you so much!

	-- John

On May 11, 2012, at 11:54 AM, Bert Freudenberg wrote:

> I fixed it. Did not do extensive testing, but with the fixed image, Scratch works with 32 bit Ubuntu's 4.4.7 Squeak VM.
> 
> Attached is a change set. Basically I did again what Andreas did on 2/2/2001 - replaced the 90 indexed primitive declarations with their named counterpart. I did not copy the current Squeak versions, to avoid any side effects.
> 
> Also, here is a fixed image+changes for easy testing (will go away in a few days):
> 
> 	http://dl.dropbox.com/u/9643745/tmp/scratch-1.4.0.5-bf.zip
> 
> - Bert -
> 
> <namedPrims-bf.2.cs.gz>

Message #194 received at 471927@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Amos Blanton <amos@scratch.mit.edu>

To: Bert Freudenberg <bert@freudenbergs.de>, 471927@bugs.debian.org, scratch@lists.launchpad.net

Subject: Re: [Vm-dev] Help/advice tracking down a squeak-vm regression

Date: Tue, 29 May 2012 15:34:17 -0400

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

Bert,

I took off on a bunch of travels and some vacation just after you made this
fix, and didn't have a chance to test. But now I've spent a little time
testing, and things seem to be working great! Not only does your fixed
image work well on 32 bit ubuntu, but it seems to work ok even when run on
my 64 bit Ubuntu 12.04 system (haven't played with sound yet, but seems
promising.).

Thanks so much for that fix!

May I update our source package with your modified image and changes files?

-Amos

On Fri, May 11, 2012 at 1:47 PM, John Maloney <jmaloney@media.mit.edu>wrote:

>
> Bert -- this is wonderful! Thank you so much!
>
>        -- John
>
> On May 11, 2012, at 11:54 AM, Bert Freudenberg wrote:
>
> > I fixed it. Did not do extensive testing, but with the fixed image,
> Scratch works with 32 bit Ubuntu's 4.4.7 Squeak VM.
> >
> > Attached is a change set. Basically I did again what Andreas did on
> 2/2/2001 - replaced the 90 indexed primitive declarations with their named
> counterpart. I did not copy the current Squeak versions, to avoid any side
> effects.
> >
> > Also, here is a fixed image+changes for easy testing (will go away in a
> few days):
> >
> >       http://dl.dropbox.com/u/9643745/tmp/scratch-1.4.0.5-bf.zip
> >
> > - Bert -
> >
> > <namedPrims-bf.2.cs.gz>
>
>

[Message part 2 (text/html, inline)]

Message #199 received at 471927@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Bert Freudenberg <bert@freudenbergs.de>

To: Amos Blanton <amos@scratch.mit.edu>

Cc: "471927@bugs.debian.org" <471927@bugs.debian.org>, "scratch@lists.launchpad.net" <scratch@lists.launchpad.net>

Subject: Re: [Vm-dev] Help/advice tracking down a squeak-vm regression

Date: Tue, 29 May 2012 22:44:33 +0200

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

Hi Amos,

the image should be relatively clean, but it's still just my working copy. It would be cleaner to file in my change set into the pristine image. 

Btw, the Sugar Labs folks still want a GPLed OLPC image. Would be great if you could release that.

And on a related note, the next Squeak VM release should have all your plugins in it. I adapted them to the unix build structure. That would mean Scratch does not need to bundle the plugins anymore. It should also help with the ARM version of the OLPC laptops.

- Bert -

On 29.05.2012, at 21:34, Amos Blanton <amos@scratch.mit.edu> wrote:

> Bert,
> 
> I took off on a bunch of travels and some vacation just after you made this fix, and didn't have a chance to test. But now I've spent a little time testing, and things seem to be working great! Not only does your fixed image work well on 32 bit ubuntu, but it seems to work ok even when run on my 64 bit Ubuntu 12.04 system (haven't played with sound yet, but seems promising.). 
> 
> Thanks so much for that fix! 
> 
> May I update our source package with your modified image and changes files?
> 
> -Amos
> 
> On Fri, May 11, 2012 at 1:47 PM, John Maloney <jmaloney@media.mit.edu> wrote:
> 
> Bert -- this is wonderful! Thank you so much!
> 
>        -- John
> 
> On May 11, 2012, at 11:54 AM, Bert Freudenberg wrote:
> 
> > I fixed it. Did not do extensive testing, but with the fixed image, Scratch works with 32 bit Ubuntu's 4.4.7 Squeak VM.
> >
> > Attached is a change set. Basically I did again what Andreas did on 2/2/2001 - replaced the 90 indexed primitive declarations with their named counterpart. I did not copy the current Squeak versions, to avoid any side effects.
> >
> > Also, here is a fixed image+changes for easy testing (will go away in a few days):
> >
> >       http://dl.dropbox.com/u/9643745/tmp/scratch-1.4.0.5-bf.zip
> >
> > - Bert -
> >
> > <namedPrims-bf.2.cs.gz>
> 
> 

[Message part 2 (text/html, inline)]

Message #204 received at 471927@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Amos Blanton <amos@scratch.mit.edu>

To: Linux Scratch <linux@scratch.mit.edu>, scratch@lists.launchpad.net, Debian Bugs <471927@bugs.debian.org>

Cc: Bert Freudenberg <bert@freudenbergs.de>

Subject: Scratch source code version 1.4.0.6 released

Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 21:23:50 -0400

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

We've released an update to the GPL v2 Scratch source
code<http://info.scratch.mit.edu/Scratch_1.4_Source_GPL> ,  now
available here:

http://download.scratch.mit.edu/scratch-1.4.0.6.src.tar.gz

1.4.0.6 changes:
* Fix for "blank screen" bug when image is run on current Squeak VMs
(Thanks to Bert Freudenberg for the fix.)
* Squeak source code for version of Scratch 1.4 modified for XO / Sugar

Scratch On!
Amos
Scratch Team

[Message part 2 (text/html, inline)]

Message #209 received at 471927@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Miriam Ruiz <miriam@debian.org>

To: Amos Blanton <amos@scratch.mit.edu>

Cc: Linux Scratch <linux@scratch.mit.edu>, scratch@lists.launchpad.net, Debian Bugs <471927@bugs.debian.org>

Subject: Re: [Scratch] Scratch source code version 1.4.0.6 released

Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 14:59:25 +0200

2012/6/5 Amos Blanton <amos@scratch.mit.edu>:
> We've released an update to the GPL v2 Scratch source code ,  now available
> here:
>
> http://download.scratch.mit.edu/scratch-1.4.0.6.src.tar.gz

Great!

I've finished the package, tested it and uploaded to Debian. I'll have
to go through the NEW queue [1], so it'll take it some days to reach
the repositories (this is only the 1st time). I've temporarily made my
package available at http://aula.edu.es/pool/main/s/scratch/

Greetings,
Miry

[1] http://ftp-master.debian.org/new.html

Message #214 received at 471927@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Amos Blanton <amos@scratch.mit.edu>

To: Miriam Ruiz <miriam@debian.org>

Cc: Linux Scratch <linux@scratch.mit.edu>, scratch@lists.launchpad.net, Debian Bugs <471927@bugs.debian.org>

Subject: Re: [Scratch] Scratch source code version 1.4.0.6 released

Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 12:23:28 -0400

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

This is awesome! :) I'm excited to see Scratch in the repositories.

On a related note, I just filed a bug on launchpad about a seg fault
triggered by sound playback on 64 bit Ubuntu 12.04 using the pulseaudio
plugin. You may encounter the same problem on 64 bit Debian systems when
using pulse.

https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/squeak-vm/+bug/1009080

All seems to work great on 32 bit systems. :)

On Tue, Jun 5, 2012 at 8:59 AM, Miriam Ruiz <miriam@debian.org> wrote:

> 2012/6/5 Amos Blanton <amos@scratch.mit.edu>:
> > We've released an update to the GPL v2 Scratch source code ,  now
> available
> > here:
> >
> > http://download.scratch.mit.edu/scratch-1.4.0.6.src.tar.gz
>
> Great!
>
> I've finished the package, tested it and uploaded to Debian. I'll have
> to go through the NEW queue [1], so it'll take it some days to reach
> the repositories (this is only the 1st time). I've temporarily made my
> package available at http://aula.edu.es/pool/main/s/scratch/
>
> Greetings,
> Miry
>
> [1] http://ftp-master.debian.org/new.html
>

[Message part 2 (text/html, inline)]

Message #221 received at 471927@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Miriam Ruiz <little_miry@yahoo.es>

To: Luca Falavigna <ftpmaster@debian.org>

Cc: Amos Blanton <amos@scratch.mit.edu>, Debian FTP Masters <ftpmaster@ftp-master.debian.org>, 471927@bugs.debian.org

Subject: Re: scratch_1.4.0.6-1_amd64.changes REJECTED

Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2012 15:28:26 +0100 (BST)

--- El mar, 5/6/12, Luca Falavigna <ftpmaster@debian.org> escribió:

> De: Luca Falavigna <ftpmaster@debian.org>
> Asunto: scratch_1.4.0.6-1_amd64.changes REJECTED
> Para: "Miriam Ruiz" <little_miry@yahoo.es>
> CC: "Debian FTP Masters" <ftpmaster@ftp-master.debian.org>
> Fecha: martes, 5 de junio, 2012 22:58
> Hi,
> 
> I can't find sources for Help/en/*.pdf files.

Hi Luca,

The source for ScratchGettingStartedv14.pdf is available in Word and OpenOffice/LibreOffice format at [1], and it can easily be added to the source package if needed. ScratchReferenceGuide14.pdf comes only from an Adobe InDesign source, and in HTML. The only Free / Open Source alternative for InDesign that I know of is Scribus, and it doesn't seem to handle them. There doesn't seem to be a nice way of converting it, in [2] it is suggested to use .ps or .eps as an intermediate step. The HTML might be another option, the most evident one. Would that be valid? Any other ideas?

Greetings and thanks,
Miry

[1] http://info.scratch.mit.edu/Translation/Translating_Scratch_Materials
[2] http://www.ehow.com/how_12085350_convert-indesign-scribus.html

Message #226 received at 471927@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Amos Blanton <amos@scratch.mit.edu>

To: Debian Bugs <471927@bugs.debian.org>

Cc: Miriam Ruiz <miriam@debian.org>

Subject: Sound plugins: pulse / OSS?

Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 16:48:13 -0400

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

I notice that the package Miry currently has up is using the OSS sound
plugin for the squeakvm (with a pulse wrapper if pulse is detected).
Unfortunately, sound recording doesn't work and playback is very choppy on
my system when using the OSS plugin. I believe the ALSA plugin has similar
problems.

I believe the pulse plugin will work well on 32 bit systems, but currently
seg faults on 64 bit.

In any case - does Debian use pulse? What would be the preferred sound
solution for Debian, and is it likely to be compatible with Ubuntu?

-Amos

[Message part 2 (text/html, inline)]

Message #231 received at 471927@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Miriam Ruiz <miriam@debian.org>

To: Amos Blanton <amos@scratch.mit.edu>

Cc: Debian Bugs <471927@bugs.debian.org>

Subject: Re: Sound plugins: pulse / OSS?

Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 20:55:56 +0200

2012/6/13 Amos Blanton <amos@scratch.mit.edu>:
> I notice that the package Miry currently has up is using the OSS sound
> plugin for the squeakvm (with a pulse wrapper if pulse is detected).
> Unfortunately, sound recording doesn't work and playback is very choppy on
> my system when using the OSS plugin. I believe the ALSA plugin has similar
> problems.
>
> I believe the pulse plugin will work well on 32 bit systems, but currently
> seg faults on 64 bit.
>
> In any case - does Debian use pulse? What would be the preferred sound
> solution for Debian, and is it likely to be compatible with Ubuntu?

If the issue is the "-vm-sound-oss" parameter given to squeakvm, I can
think of a couple of possibilities:

1) create different starting scripts for each system, possibly
selecting the preferred one via alternatives
2) use a default parameter, and allow to modify it via environment variables

What about something like this? Any better idea?

Greetings,
Miry

Message #236 received at 471927-close@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Miriam Ruiz <little_miry@yahoo.es>

To: 471927-close@bugs.debian.org

Subject: Bug#471927: fixed in scratch 1.4.0.6~dfsg1-1

Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2012 18:03:18 +0000

Source: scratch
Source-Version: 1.4.0.6~dfsg1-1

We believe that the bug you reported is fixed in the latest version of
scratch, which is due to be installed in the Debian FTP archive:

scratch_1.4.0.6~dfsg1-1.debian.tar.bz2
  to main/s/scratch/scratch_1.4.0.6~dfsg1-1.debian.tar.bz2
scratch_1.4.0.6~dfsg1-1.dsc
  to main/s/scratch/scratch_1.4.0.6~dfsg1-1.dsc
scratch_1.4.0.6~dfsg1-1_all.deb
  to main/s/scratch/scratch_1.4.0.6~dfsg1-1_all.deb
scratch_1.4.0.6~dfsg1.orig.tar.bz2
  to main/s/scratch/scratch_1.4.0.6~dfsg1.orig.tar.bz2



A summary of the changes between this version and the previous one is
attached.

Thank you for reporting the bug, which will now be closed.  If you
have further comments please address them to 471927@bugs.debian.org,
and the maintainer will reopen the bug report if appropriate.

Debian distribution maintenance software
pp.
Miriam Ruiz <little_miry@yahoo.es> (supplier of updated scratch package)

(This message was generated automatically at their request; if you
believe that there is a problem with it please contact the archive
administrators by mailing ftpmaster@debian.org)


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Format: 1.8
Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2012 11:03:42 +0200
Source: scratch
Binary: scratch
Architecture: source all
Version: 1.4.0.6~dfsg1-1
Distribution: unstable
Urgency: low
Maintainer: Miriam Ruiz <little_miry@yahoo.es>
Changed-By: Miriam Ruiz <little_miry@yahoo.es>
Description: 
 scratch    - easy to use programming environment for ages 8 and up - data
Closes: 471927
Changes: 
 scratch (1.4.0.6~dfsg1-1) unstable; urgency=low
 .
   * First release in Debian repositories. Closes: #471927
   * New upstream release
   * Repackaged upstream tarball to remove pdf files and replace links with
     the same files that are hosted on their site:
   * Fix for "blank screen" bug when image is run on current Squeak VMs
   * Squeak source code for version of Scratch 1.4 modified for XO / Sugar
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