Debian Bug report logs - #363486
dpkg: [update-alternatives] New categories for: WORD, EXCEL, MEDIA-PLAYER etc.

Package: general; Maintainer for general is debian-devel@lists.debian.org;

Reported by: Jari Aalto <jari.aalto@cante.net>

Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 12:03:07 UTC

Severity: wishlist

Done: Holger Levsen <holger@layer-acht.org>

Bug is archived. No further changes may be made.

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Report forwarded to debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org, Dpkg Developers <team@dpkg.org>:
Bug#363486; Package dpkg. Full text and rfc822 format available.

Acknowledgement sent to Jari Aalto <jari.aalto@cante.net>:
New Bug report received and forwarded. Copy sent to Dpkg Developers <team@dpkg.org>. Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #5 received at submit@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox):

From: Jari Aalto <jari.aalto@cante.net>
To: Debian Bug Tracking System <submit@bugs.debian.org>
Subject: dpkg: [update-alternatives] New categories for: WORD, EXCEL, MEDIA-PLAYER etc.
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 14:44:08 +0300
Package: dpkg
Version: 1.13.18
Severity: wishlist

There are many programs that act on a file that contains certain extension
or if they support MIME types, they look up the program associated with it.

The problem is that there are many programs to do the same thing. For example
Person trying to open "File Manager" must remmeber that the
esoteric names are

	xfe
	mfm
	emelfm
	worker
	krusader
	endeavour2
	rox-filer
	thunar 
	...

The same problem is with Office programs:

	lyx
	abiword
	oowriter
	...

The /etc/alternatives contains a good framework to canonicalize actions to
common names available in system and to control the preferred program.

SUGGESTION

Create new alternatives with names something like:

	office-word		or just Industry de facto "word"
	ooffice-excel		or just Industry de facto "excel"
	file-manager
	archiver		The X counterpart for Win32 "WinZip"
	media-player		For video		
	music-player		For music

This way numerous programs could refer to common program "music-player",
which the arternatives frame work would provide. The generic names would
also add simplicity to overall handling of the various binaries that
would hook themselves to the alternatives base.

Small window managers (Other than the KDE, Gnome, Xfce) would also
benefit from this, because they could use generic menu items and call
the "alternatives" name without the need to refer to certain binary,
which may not be installed.

-- System Information:
Debian Release: testing/unstable
  APT prefers unstable
  APT policy: (500, 'unstable'), (500, 'stable')
Architecture: i386 (i686)
Shell:  /bin/sh linked to /bin/dash
Kernel: Linux 2.6.16-1-686
Locale: LANG=C, LC_CTYPE=C (charmap=ISO-8859-1) (ignored: LC_ALL set to en_US)

Versions of packages dpkg depends on:
ii  coreutils [textutils]         5.94-1     The GNU core utilities
ii  libc6                         2.3.6-7    GNU C Library: Shared libraries

dpkg recommends no packages.

-- no debconf information



Information forwarded to debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org, Dpkg Developers <team@dpkg.org>:
Bug#363486; Package dpkg. Full text and rfc822 format available.

Acknowledgement sent to Guillem Jover <guillem@debian.org>:
Extra info received and forwarded to list. Copy sent to Dpkg Developers <team@dpkg.org>. Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #10 received at 363486@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox):

From: Guillem Jover <guillem@debian.org>
To: Jari Aalto <jari.aalto@cante.net>, 363486@bugs.debian.org
Cc: debian-policy@lists.debian.org
Subject: Re: Bug#363486: dpkg: [update-alternatives] New categories for: WORD, EXCEL, MEDIA-PLAYER etc.
Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 17:40:24 +0300
reassign 363486 debian-policy
thanks

Hi,

This bug was filed against dpkg, but dpkg only provides the mechanisms
to support alternatives, each package should agree on which interface
is needed to be able to provide a specific alternative. And if they
should provide a virtual package for it.

On Wed, 2006-04-19 at 14:44:08 +0300, Jari Aalto wrote:
> Package: dpkg
> Version: 1.13.18
> Severity: wishlist
> 
> There are many programs that act on a file that contains certain extension
> or if they support MIME types, they look up the program associated with it.
> 
> The problem is that there are many programs to do the same thing. For example
> Person trying to open "File Manager" must remmeber that the
> esoteric names are
> 
> 	xfe
> 	mfm
> 	emelfm
> 	worker
> 	krusader
> 	endeavour2
> 	rox-filer
> 	thunar 
> 	...
> 
> The same problem is with Office programs:
> 
> 	lyx
> 	abiword
> 	oowriter
> 	...
> 
> The /etc/alternatives contains a good framework to canonicalize actions to
> common names available in system and to control the preferred program.
> 
> SUGGESTION
> 
> Create new alternatives with names something like:
> 
> 	office-word		or just Industry de facto "word"
> 	ooffice-excel		or just Industry de facto "excel"
> 	file-manager
> 	archiver		The X counterpart for Win32 "WinZip"
> 	media-player		For video		
> 	music-player		For music
> 
> This way numerous programs could refer to common program "music-player",
> which the arternatives frame work would provide. The generic names would
> also add simplicity to overall handling of the various binaries that
> would hook themselves to the alternatives base.
> 
> Small window managers (Other than the KDE, Gnome, Xfce) would also
> benefit from this, because they could use generic menu items and call
> the "alternatives" name without the need to refer to certain binary,
> which may not be installed.

regards,
guillem



Bug reassigned from package `dpkg' to `debian-policy'. Request was from Guillem Jover <guillem@debian.org> to control@bugs.debian.org. Full text and rfc822 format available.

Bug reassigned from package `debian-policy' to `general'. Request was from Manoj Srivastava <srivasta@debian.org> to control@bugs.debian.org. Full text and rfc822 format available.

Information forwarded to debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org, <debian-devel@lists.debian.org>:
Bug#363486; Package general. Full text and rfc822 format available.

Acknowledgement sent to Jari Aalto <jari.aalto@cante.net>:
Extra info received and forwarded to list. Copy sent to <debian-devel@lists.debian.org>. Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #19 received at 363486@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox):

From: Jari Aalto <jari.aalto@cante.net>
To: debian-policy@lists.debian.org
Cc: 363486@bugs.debian.org
Subject: Re: Bug#363486: dpkg: [update-alternatives] New categories for: WORD, EXCEL, MEDIA-PLAYER etc.
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 12:53:57 +0300
| Guillem Jover <guillem@debian.org>:
| reassign 363486 debian-policy
| 
| each package should agree on which interface is needed to be able to
| provide a specific alternative. And if they should provide a virtual
| package for it.
| 
| On Wed, 2006-04-19 at 14:44:08 +0300, Jari Aalto wrote:
| > Package: dpkg
| > Version: 1.13.18
| > Severity: wishlist
| > 
| > There are many programs that act on a file that contains certain extension
| > or if they support MIME types, they look up the program associated with it.
| > 
| > The problem is that there are many programs to do the same thing. For example
| > Person trying to open "File Manager" must remmeber that the
| > esoteric names are
| > 
| > 	xfe
| > 	mfm
| > 	emelfm
| > 	worker
| > 	krusader
| > 	endeavour2
| > 	rox-filer
| > 	thunar 
| > 	...
| > 
| > The same problem is with Office programs:
| > 
| > 	lyx
| > 	abiword
| > 	oowriter
| > 	...
| > 
| > The /etc/alternatives contains a good framework to canonicalize actions to
| > common names available in system and to control the preferred program.
| > 
| > SUGGESTION
| > 
| > Create new alternatives with names something like:
| > 
| > 	x-office-word
| > 	x-office-excel		
| > 	x-file-manager
| > 	x-archiver		
| > 	x-media-player		or "video-player"
| > 	x-music-player		For music
| > 
| > This way numerous programs could refer to common program "music-player",
| > which the arternatives frame work would provide. The generic names would
| > also add simplicity to overall handling of the various binaries that
| > would hook themselves to the alternatives base.
| > 
| > Small window managers (Other than the KDE, Gnome, Xfce) would also
| > benefit from this, because they could use generic menu items and call
| > the "alternatives" name without the need to refer to certain binary,
| > which may not be installed.

To Debian Policy ML:

Is there any coordinated effort to standardize the name of the provided
programs in /etc/alternatives? 

I revised the above proposal by adding prefix:

  x-*

for programs requiring an X environment.

Jari



Information forwarded to debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org, <debian-devel@lists.debian.org>:
Bug#363486; Package general. Full text and rfc822 format available.

Acknowledgement sent to "Margarita Manterola" <margamanterola@gmail.com>:
Extra info received and forwarded to list. Copy sent to <debian-devel@lists.debian.org>. Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #24 received at 363486@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox):

From: "Margarita Manterola" <margamanterola@gmail.com>
To: debian-policy@lists.debian.org, 363486@bugs.debian.org, 363486-submitter@bugs.debian.org
Subject: Re: Bug#363486: dpkg: [update-alternatives] New categories for: WORD, EXCEL, MEDIA-PLAYER etc.
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 08:57:30 -0300
On 6/12/06, Jari Aalto <jari.aalto@cante.net> wrote:
> Is there any coordinated effort to standardize the name of the provided
> programs in /etc/alternatives?

I don't think this concerns debian-policy at all.  The use of
alternatives is something that needs to be coordinated amont the
maintainers of packages.  It's not a question of policy or of dpkg.

So, in order to have an alternative link for x-word-processor or
x-spreadsheet, you need to file wishlist bugs against the packages
that would be involved, and then have the maintainers  agree with each
other what to do.

But, before doing so, it would be a good idea to discuss about this on
debian-devel.  I suggest you post the original proposal to
debian-devel, explaining the full rationale on why you want this, what
would need to be changed, what would be the benefits for the users and
what would be the maintainers' resposibilities.

-- 
Besos,
Marga



Message sent on to Jari Aalto <jari.aalto@cante.net>:
Bug#363486. Full text and rfc822 format available.

Information forwarded to debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org, <debian-devel@lists.debian.org>:
Bug#363486; Package general. Full text and rfc822 format available.

Acknowledgement sent to "Frederico Rodrigues Abraham" <devotion97@gmail.com>:
Extra info received and forwarded to list. Copy sent to <debian-devel@lists.debian.org>. Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #32 received at 363486@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox):

From: "Frederico Rodrigues Abraham" <devotion97@gmail.com>
To: "Margarita Manterola" <margamanterola@gmail.com>, 363486@bugs.debian.org
Cc: debian-policy@lists.debian.org, 363486-submitter@bugs.debian.org
Subject: Re: Bug#363486: dpkg: [update-alternatives] New categories for: WORD, EXCEL, MEDIA-PLAYER etc.
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 09:42:10 -0300
an off-topic question:

why x-office-word, x-office-excel, etc?
are these trying to express "the replacement for microsoft windows
word, excel" ?
or is this what text documents or spreadsheet documents being called?

-- Fred

On 6/12/06, Margarita Manterola <margamanterola@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 6/12/06, Jari Aalto <jari.aalto@cante.net> wrote:
> > Is there any coordinated effort to standardize the name of the provided
> > programs in /etc/alternatives?
>
> I don't think this concerns debian-policy at all.  The use of
> alternatives is something that needs to be coordinated amont the
> maintainers of packages.  It's not a question of policy or of dpkg.
>
> So, in order to have an alternative link for x-word-processor or
> x-spreadsheet, you need to file wishlist bugs against the packages
> that would be involved, and then have the maintainers  agree with each
> other what to do.
>
> But, before doing so, it would be a good idea to discuss about this on
> debian-devel.  I suggest you post the original proposal to
> debian-devel, explaining the full rationale on why you want this, what
> would need to be changed, what would be the benefits for the users and
> what would be the maintainers' resposibilities.
>
> --
> Besos,
> Marga
>
>
> --
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-REQUEST@lists.debian.org
> with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org
>
>


-- 
   -- Fred



Message sent on to Jari Aalto <jari.aalto@cante.net>:
Bug#363486. Full text and rfc822 format available.

Information forwarded to debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org, <debian-devel@lists.debian.org>:
Bug#363486; Package general. Full text and rfc822 format available.

Acknowledgement sent to Jari Aalto <jari.aalto@cante.net>:
Extra info received and forwarded to list. Copy sent to <debian-devel@lists.debian.org>. Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #40 received at 363486@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox):

From: Jari Aalto <jari.aalto@cante.net>
To: "Frederico Rodrigues Abraham" <devotion97@gmail.com>, 363486-quiet@bugs.debian.org
Cc: 363486@bugs.debian.org, "Margarita Manterola" <margamanterola@gmail.com>, debian-policy@lists.debian.org, 363486-submitter@bugs.debian.org
Subject: Re: Bug#363486: dpkg: [update-alternatives] New categories for: WORD, EXCEL, MEDIA-PLAYER etc.
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 20:21:32 +0300
| an off-topic question:
| 
| why x-office-word, x-office-excel, etc?
| are these trying to express "the replacement for microsoft windows
| word, excel" ?
| or is this what text documents or spreadsheet documents being called?

It's almost industry standard to refer to "Word" as the word processor
program, similarly "Excel", but as suggested below

  x-word-processor
  x-office-spreadsheet

will do nicely too. I'll recap this issue in Debian devel.

Jari

| On 6/12/06, Margarita Manterola <margamanterola@gmail.com> wrote:
| > On 6/12/06, Jari Aalto <jari.aalto@cante.net> wrote:
| > > Is there any coordinated effort to standardize the name of the provided
| > > programs in /etc/alternatives?
| >
| > I don't think this concerns debian-policy at all.  The use of
| > alternatives is something that needs to be coordinated amont the
| > maintainers of packages.  It's not a question of policy or of dpkg.
| >
| > So, in order to have an alternative link for x-word-processor or
| > x-spreadsheet, you need to file wishlist bugs against the packages
| > that would be involved, and then have the maintainers  agree with each
| > other what to do.
| >
| > But, before doing so, it would be a good idea to discuss about this on
| > debian-devel.  I suggest you post the original proposal to
| > debian-devel, explaining the full rationale on why you want this, what
| > would need to be changed, what would be the benefits for the users and
| > what would be the maintainers' resposibilities.
| >
| > --
| > Besos,
| > Marga



Information stored:
Bug#363486; Package general. Full text and rfc822 format available.

Acknowledgement sent to Jari Aalto <jari.aalto@cante.net>:
Extra info received and filed, but not forwarded. Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message sent on to Jari Aalto <jari.aalto@cante.net>:
Bug#363486. Full text and rfc822 format available.

Information forwarded to debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org, <debian-devel@lists.debian.org>:
Bug#363486; Package general. Full text and rfc822 format available.

Acknowledgement sent to Kurt Roeckx <kurt@roeckx.be>:
Extra info received and forwarded to list. Copy sent to <debian-devel@lists.debian.org>. Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #53 received at 363486@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox):

From: Kurt Roeckx <kurt@roeckx.be>
To: Jari Aalto <jari.aalto@cante.net>, 363486@bugs.debian.org
Cc: debian-devel@lists.debian.org
Subject: Re: Bug#363486: dpkg: [update-alternatives] New categories for: WORD, EXCEL, MEDIA-PLAYER etc.
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 20:44:55 +0200
On Mon, Jun 12, 2006 at 12:53:57PM +0300, Jari Aalto wrote:
> | > 
> | > The same problem is with Office programs:
> | > 
> | > 	lyx
> | > 	abiword
> | > 	oowriter
> | > 	...
> | > 
> | > The /etc/alternatives contains a good framework to canonicalize actions to
> | > common names available in system and to control the preferred program.

I think you're not very clear in what you're asking, so I'm going
to try and explain what I think you said.

If you open a file in a file browser, or you open it thru a web
browser or something, it might have a mime type assosiated with
it.  So what I think you suggest is that based on the mime-type
we start an application that should be able to handle that
mime-type.

I'm not sure if the alternatives system is the best place to
"register" mime types.  I'm also not sure that a Debian specific
solution as the alternatives system is the best way to go.  But I
can see why this would be useful, and maybe it should work in
combination with the alternatives system.

I hope I understood your suggestion.


Kurt




Information forwarded to debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org, <debian-devel@lists.debian.org>:
Bug#363486; Package general. Full text and rfc822 format available.

Acknowledgement sent to "Martijn van Oosterhout" <kleptog@gmail.com>:
Extra info received and forwarded to list. Copy sent to <debian-devel@lists.debian.org>. Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #58 received at 363486@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox):

From: "Martijn van Oosterhout" <kleptog@gmail.com>
To: "Kurt Roeckx" <kurt@roeckx.be>
Cc: "Jari Aalto" <jari.aalto@cante.net>, 363486@bugs.debian.org, debian-devel@lists.debian.org
Subject: Re: Bug#363486: dpkg: [update-alternatives] New categories for: WORD, EXCEL, MEDIA-PLAYER etc.
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 11:58:47 +0200
On 6/12/06, Kurt Roeckx <kurt@roeckx.be> wrote:
> I'm not sure if the alternatives system is the best place to
> "register" mime types.  I'm also not sure that a Debian specific
> solution as the alternatives system is the best way to go.  But I
> can see why this would be useful, and maybe it should work in
> combination with the alternatives system.

Opening based on mime-types is a solved problem, see /etc/mailcap. You
can even specify different programs depending on whether you're in X
or not. See run-mailcap.

In particular: see <mime-type>:<filename> will determine the correct
viewer for the file and display it. There is also edit, compose and
print. Preferences can be consigured globally using
/etc/mailcap.order.
-- 
Martijn van Oosterhout <kleptog@gmail.com> http://svana.org/kleptog/



Information forwarded to debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org, <debian-devel@lists.debian.org>:
Bug#363486; Package general. Full text and rfc822 format available.

Acknowledgement sent to Josselin Mouette <joss@debian.org>:
Extra info received and forwarded to list. Copy sent to <debian-devel@lists.debian.org>. Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #63 received at 363486@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox):

From: Josselin Mouette <joss@debian.org>
To: Jari Aalto <jari.aalto@cante.net>, 363486@bugs.debian.org, debian-devel@lists.debian.org
Subject: Re: Bug#363486: dpkg: [update-alternatives] New categories for: WORD, EXCEL, MEDIA-PLAYER etc.
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 22:44:46 +0200
[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]
Le lundi 12 juin 2006 à 20:44 +0200, Kurt Roeckx a écrit :
> I think you're not very clear in what you're asking, so I'm going
> to try and explain what I think you said.
> 
> If you open a file in a file browser, or you open it thru a web
> browser or something, it might have a mime type assosiated with
> it.  So what I think you suggest is that based on the mime-type
> we start an application that should be able to handle that
> mime-type.

This is what the Freedesktop.org MIME database achieves. No need to
reinvent what is already a widespread standard.
-- 
 .''`.           Josselin Mouette        /\./\
: :' :           josselin.mouette@ens-lyon.org
`. `'                        joss@debian.org
  `-  Debian GNU/Linux -- The power of freedom
[signature.asc (application/pgp-signature, inline)]

Reply sent to Holger Levsen <holger@layer-acht.org>:
You have taken responsibility. Full text and rfc822 format available.

Notification sent to Jari Aalto <jari.aalto@cante.net>:
Bug acknowledged by developer. Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #68 received at 363486-done@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox):

From: Holger Levsen <holger@layer-acht.org>
To: 363486-done@bugs.debian.org
Subject: implemented elsewhere already (or please file seperate bugs if thats not enough)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 17:43:19 +0200
[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]
Hi,

as one can read in this bug report, this feature is either implemented 
elsewhere (either via /etc/mailcap or via the Freedesktop.org MIME database). 

If one really wants alternatives (as in update-alternatives (8)) implemented 
you should file bugs against the specific packages.

Thus closing.


regards,
	Holger
[Message part 2 (application/pgp-signature, inline)]

Bug archived. Request was from Debbugs Internal Request <owner@bugs.debian.org> to internal_control@bugs.debian.org. (Tue, 07 Oct 2008 07:31:41 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

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