Debian Bug report logs - #296807
ftp.debian.org: ftp.nz.debian.org inaccessable from majority of nz internet

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Message #5 received at submit@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Jonathan <jbillin@fmc.gotdns.org>

To: Debian Bug Tracking System <submit@bugs.debian.org>

Subject: ftp.debian.org: ftp.nz.debian.org inaccessable from majority of nz internet

Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 08:44:23 +1300

Package: ftp.debian.org
Severity: grave
Justification: renders package unusable


Due to recent policy and routing changes on the New Zealand network ftp.nz.debian.org is no longer accessable to the majority of NZ internet users.
Citylink, the company that maintains the mirror have had a policy in place for some time which requires ISPs to peer at the Wellington Internet eXchange in order for their customers to access the ftp site. Since yesterday, Feb 24th at 11am (due to peering policy changes at the two major nz carriers) the ftp site became inaccessable from the majority of NZ debian users.

Error message is as follows:

sh-2.04$ ftp ftp.nz.debian.org
Connected to ftp.citylink.co.nz.
550- ISP Routing Error
550-
550- Sadly, we can no longer afford to provide this content to
550- entities that do not peer at WIX.  Please contact your ISP
550- and advise them that they may well be able to fix this problem
550- for you by peering with other ISPs at the WIX peering points.
550-
550- For further information, please see <http://nzix.net/peerless/ftp>.
550-
550- We apologise for any inconvenience.
550
ftp>



-- System Information:
Debian Release: 3.1
  APT prefers testing
  APT policy: (500, 'testing')
Architecture: i386 (i686)
Kernel: Linux 2.4.27
Locale: LANG=en_NZ, LC_CTYPE=en_NZ (charmap=ISO-8859-1)

Message #14 received at 296807@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: MJ Ray <mjr@phonecoop.coop>

To: <296807@bugs.debian.org>

Cc: <ftpmaster@ihug.co.nz>

Subject: ftp.nz.debian.org inaccessible from NZ internet

Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 19:53:53 +0100

The only other debian mirror in NZ listed seems to be ihug.co.nz
- I don't know whether they'd be interested in being ftp.nz.debian.org
instead.

Message #19 received at 296807@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: MJ Ray <mjr@phonecoop.coop>

To: <ftpmaster@ihug.co.nz>

Cc: <296807@bugs.debian.org>,<debian-project@lists.debian.org>

Subject: Re: ftp.nz.debian.org inaccessible from NZ internet

Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 23:48:22 +0100

Jon, thanks for the note from ihug. Can you cc the above bugs
address on your next reply, please?

I've been talking to collaborators in NZ and it seems that this
is a symptom of a rather complex local problem. One description
is at http://publicaddress.net/default,2213.sm#post2213

I'm not sure how debian should react to this. I'll send this to
debian-project, as it's not really a technical problem. Should
we react to the complaint in bug 296807, or encourage this
"public good" offered by WIX by keeping citylink as ftp.nz?

Message #24 received at 296807@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Matt Brown <matt@mattb.net.nz>

To: MJ Ray <mjr@phonecoop.coop>

Cc: ftpmaster@ihug.co.nz, 296807@bugs.debian.org, debian-project@lists.debian.org

Subject: Re: ftp.nz.debian.org inaccessible from NZ internet

Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 12:49:04 +1200

On Thu, 2005-06-02 at 23:48 +0100, MJ Ray wrote:
<snip>
> I'm not sure how debian should react to this. I'll send this to
> debian-project, as it's not really a technical problem. Should
> we react to the complaint in bug 296807, or encourage this
> "public good" offered by WIX by keeping citylink as ftp.nz?

As a NZ Network "geek" , Debian user and a prospective Debian developer
I have a few comments on this matter. 

As you mentioned it's a fairly complex problem and there isn't a simple
answer however my understanding is that the current ftp.nz.debian.org
mirror provided by Citylink meets the requirements for an official
primary country mirror listed at http://www.debian.org/mirror/official

It's also worth pointing out that since the original bug report was
filed Citylink appear to have taken steps to increase the availability
of ftp.nz.debian.org by making it available via anycast at both the APE
and WIX peering points. Together these two peering points have
connectivity to all of the major network operators in New Zealand. To my
mind this demonstrates that Citylink is doing their best to support NZ
Debian users.

The problem is that the two largest Telco's in the country (which have
connections at both APE and WIX and could access the mirror) choose not
to peer meaning that content such as the debian mirror is not available
to their customers. 

Given that the mirror operator (Citylink) is making the content
available to 99% of the NZ Internet it seems that it would be
unreasonable for the Debian project to require any more of them. It's
not their fault that certain ISPs choose to try and access the content
Internationally instead of locally. The correct solution to this problem
is for users who are unable to access the mirror to complain to their
ISP that they are blocking access to national content. 

It is an annoying situation, and it affects me daily as my work is a
client of one of the two Telco's metioned, but I still firmly believe
that the problem lies with the Telco's rather than with the mirror
operator. 

HTH. 

Regards

-- 
Matt Brown
matt@mattb.net.nz
Mob +64 275 611 544 www.mattb.net.nz

Message #29 received at 296807@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: MJ Ray <mjr@phonecoop.coop>

To: <matt@mattb.net.nz>,<296807@bugs.debian.org>,<debian-project@lists.debian.org>

Subject: Re: Bug#296807: ftp.nz.debian.org inaccessible from NZ internet

Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 02:29:39 +0100

Matt Brown <matt@mattb.net.nz> wrote: [...]
> As you mentioned it's a fairly complex problem and there isn't a simple
> answer however my understanding is that the current ftp.nz.debian.org
> mirror provided by Citylink meets the requirements for an official
> primary country mirror listed at http://www.debian.org/mirror/official

Does it?  Those requirements include:
# It must have a decent connectivity (relative to the respective
country). [...]

I don't know NZ enough to comment whether it is "decent".
Thanks for contributing your local knowledge.

> Given that the mirror operator (Citylink) is making the content
> available to 99% of the NZ Internet it seems that it would be
> unreasonable for the Debian project to require any more of them.

You write "99% of the NZ Internet", but the bug report says
"ftp.nz.debian.org is no longer accessible to the majority of
NZ internet users" which says to me either it's available to
<50% or the bug report is now inaccurate. Is there a
reference about how many are affected?

Message #34 received at 296807@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Matt Brown <matt@mattb.net.nz>

To: MJ Ray <mjr@phonecoop.coop>

Cc: 296807@bugs.debian.org, debian-project@lists.debian.org

Subject: Re: Bug#296807: ftp.nz.debian.org inaccessible from NZ internet

Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 13:47:37 +1200

On Fri, 2005-06-03 at 02:29 +0100, MJ Ray wrote:
<snip>
> Does it?  Those requirements include:
> # It must have a decent connectivity (relative to the respective
> country). [...]
> 
> I don't know NZ enough to comment whether it is "decent".
> Thanks for contributing your local knowledge.

This is where it gets tricky and contentious :)

> You write "99% of the NZ Internet", but the bug report says
> "ftp.nz.debian.org is no longer accessible to the majority of
> NZ internet users" which says to me either it's available to
> <50% or the bug report is now inaccurate. Is there a
> reference about how many are affected?

Both statements are correct if you make a distinction between available
to an ISP and accessible to that ISPs customers (which is what I was
doing - sorry for not making that clearer). 

The mirror in question is available to 99% of the ISPs in NZ, but the
largest ISPs in the country (Xtra owned by Telecom NZ) chooses not to
allow their customers to access it. Telecom NZ is very close to being in
a monopoly position in NZ and it's main competitor, TelstraClear, also
acts in a similar way with regard to peering by choosing not to let
their customers access the mirror.

The result of this is that the mirror is probably accessible to less
than 50% of the Internet users in the country. I don't have any suitable
references for these figures to hand sorry but . 

I'm making a value judgement in stating that in my opinion the mirror
provider Citylink has fulfilled their obligations to Debian and for many
years they did shoulder the cost of paying for transit to provide the
mirror content to those ISPs who chose not to acccess it at APE or WIX. 

That's my opinion if it's not agreed with that's fine, it is a
contentious issue and can be argued both ways.

Regards

-- 
Matt Brown
matt@mattb.net.nz
Mob +64 275 611 544 www.mattb.net.nz

Message #41 received at 296807@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: "Jacob Doherty" <jacobd@theflat.gen.nz>

To: <296807@bugs.debian.org>

Subject: Re: Bug#296807: ftp.nz.debian.org

Date: Sat, 20 May 2006 13:38:00 +1200

I notice this bug, while old still appears to be open.

It appears Citylink (www.citylink.co.nz) who provide the mirror for 
ftp.nz.debian.org may have changed their access policy recently.
I'm connected through Telecom/Xtra (one of the two big Telecommunications 
companies in New Zealand who do not peer widely).
See: www.xtra.co.nz

While my traffic is routed internationally, the FTP server does allow me to 
connect.
Althought not a true 'local' mirror for me at least, it is accesible.

I do get better latency, and throughput from ftp.au.debian.org which is 
amusing.

Here is a traceroute from my connection:

traceroute to ftp.nz.debian.org (202.7.6.9), 30 hops max, 38 byte packets

2  222-152-0-1.jetstream.xtra.co.nz (222.152.0.1)
3  210.55.205.59 (210.55.205.59)
4  vlan-283.tkbr4.global-gateway.net.nz (202.50.245.197)
5  pc1-30.tkbr3.global-gateway.net.nz (210.55.202.65)
6  202.50.232.26 (202.50.232.26)
7  so2-0-0-0.labr4.global-gateway.net.nz (203.96.120.102)
8  lax-ix.he.net (206.223.123.37)
9  pos3-2.gsr12416.pao.he.net (65.19.129.1)
10  ge-0-1-0-41.r00.uspao.via.net (209.81.1.2)
11  200paul.woodynet.net (198.32.176.62)
12  icdc.woodynet.net (204.61.215.38)
13  ftp.nz.debian.org (202.7.6.9)


Cheers,


Jacob Doherty

E: jacobd@theflat.gen.nz

Message #46 received at 296807-done@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Simon Paillard <simon.paillard@resel.enst-bretagne.fr>

To: 296807-done@bugs.debian.org

Cc: Jacob Doherty <jacobd@theflat.gen.nz>

Subject: mirror ftp.nz.debian.org now accessible from everywhere

Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2006 23:03:46 +0200

Hi,

ftp.nz.debian.org is now accessible from everywhere on internet,
especially from .nz ISP who not peer with the mirror's sponsor.

Thanks to Jacob Doherty for notifying the change in the Citylink's
policy.

The bug can now be closed.

Regards,

-- 
Simon Paillard

Message #51 received at 296807@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: "Susanne Buntaine" <Buntaineglvd@acticom-mobile.com>

To: <296807@bugs.debian.org>

Subject: courses corporate sales

Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 11:42:02 +0200

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