Debian Bug report logs - #263084
www.debian.org: please fix gender-biased language in devel/join/nm-advocate

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Message #5 received at submit@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Helen Faulkner <helen_ml_faulkner@yahoo.co.uk>

To: submit@bugs.debian.org

Subject: Please change sexist language in debian (English) webpages

Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 23:42:56 +0100

Package: www.debian.org

This bug reports a problem with content on the website.  It was 
suggested that I file it against www.debian.org, but if there is an 
actual different package name for the website (I couldn't find one), 
please file this bug against that.

I have noticed some examples of sexist language on the debian website, 
looking at the English-language pages.  Most examples take the form of 
assuming that a developer will always be male, a project leader will be 
always male, etc.  This can be offputting and potentially offensive to 
women like myself who wish to become debian developers, and encourages 
people make the assumption that all developers etc are male.

Note that most of the pages I have looked at on the website are fine in 
this regard.  The most common strategy seems to be avoidance of gendered 
pronouns (ie writing to avoid use of he or she), and use of he/she where 
it's too awkward to avoid the pronoun altogether.  Some pages use "they" 
as a gender-neutral pronoun.

The worst example I have seen is here:
http://www.debian.org/devel/join/nm-advocate

I suggest rewording that page as follows (between ***s). The first 
paragraph of this was written by Carla Schroder:
***********************************************************
"There is a checklist of what a NM has to do. The NM needs a GPG
key signed by a developer, then has to answer some Philosophy and
Procedures questions. The Tasks and Skills test proves that the NM has 
the experience to be a good Debian developer.

You should advocate someone when you think that he/she is ready to be a 
developer -- i.e. has the required skills and has been involved with the 
project for some time. Just ask yourself if you want to see this person 
in Debian -- if the answer is yes then go ahead with your recommendation

The exact steps are like this: you agree to recommend a prospective 
developer and he/she signs up. Then you have to go to this site, click 
on the correct name in the listing of applicants, go to the "advocate 
this application" page, put in your Debian login and press the 'submit' 
button. You will then receive an e-mail with an auth key which you have 
to return GPG/PGP signed. When this is done, an AM will be assigned to 
goes through the NM steps with the prospective developer."
***********************************************************


Other examples of similar problematic wording are at the following 
pages.  I doubt this is an exhaustive list.  In most cases, the change 
would be a case of substituting "she/he" for "he" in a small number of 
places.   I wonder if it is possible to automate the process of 
searching webpages for "he" and "his" and subsitituting "he/she" and 
"her/him", as a way of ensuring that there aren't any other pages on 
www.debian.org with similarly sexist language.  Presumably other such 
things could be done for the pages in languages other than English, if 
the problem arises in those languages.

http://people.debian.org/~mpalmer/debian-mentors_FAQ.html

http://www.internatif.org/bortzmeyer/debian/sponsor/
(I wonder if I were to fill out the form would it come up with "he's 
looking for a sponsor", like the others?)

http://www.debian.org/doc/packaging-manuals/developers-reference/ch-resources.en.html

http://www.debian.org/doc/packaging-manuals/developers-reference/ch-pkgs.en.html

http://www.debian.org/doc/packaging-manuals/developers-reference/ch-beyond-pkging.en.html

http://www.debian.org/security/faq

http://www.debian.org/doc/user-manuals

Thank you,

Helen Faulkner.

Message #10 received at submit@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: reisio <debian-www@reisio.com>

To: Helen Faulkner <helen_ml_faulkner@yahoo.co.uk>, 263084@bugs.debian.org

Cc: submit@bugs.debian.org

Subject: Re: Bug#263084: Please change sexist language in debian (English) webpages

Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 19:55:13 -0400

IMO he/she & him/her is silly.  If someone wants to take time to make it 
all completely unspecific (eg. "they", etc) kudos; otherwise I think 
you're being paranoid.
Helen Faulkner wrote:

> Package: www.debian.org
>
> This bug reports a problem with content on the website.  It was 
> suggested that I file it against www.debian.org, but if there is an 
> actual different package name for the website (I couldn't find one), 
> please file this bug against that.
>
> I have noticed some examples of sexist language on the debian website, 
> looking at the English-language pages.  Most examples take the form of 
> assuming that a developer will always be male, a project leader will 
> be always male, etc.  This can be offputting and potentially offensive 
> to women like myself who wish to become debian developers, and 
> encourages people make the assumption that all developers etc are male.
>
> Note that most of the pages I have looked at on the website are fine 
> in this regard.  The most common strategy seems to be avoidance of 
> gendered pronouns (ie writing to avoid use of he or she), and use of 
> he/she where it's too awkward to avoid the pronoun altogether.  Some 
> pages use "they" as a gender-neutral pronoun.
>
> The worst example I have seen is here:
> http://www.debian.org/devel/join/nm-advocate
>
> I suggest rewording that page as follows (between ***s). The first 
> paragraph of this was written by Carla Schroder:
> ***********************************************************
> "There is a checklist of what a NM has to do. The NM needs a GPG
> key signed by a developer, then has to answer some Philosophy and
> Procedures questions. The Tasks and Skills test proves that the NM has 
> the experience to be a good Debian developer.
>
> You should advocate someone when you think that he/she is ready to be 
> a developer -- i.e. has the required skills and has been involved with 
> the project for some time. Just ask yourself if you want to see this 
> person in Debian -- if the answer is yes then go ahead with your 
> recommendation
>
> The exact steps are like this: you agree to recommend a prospective 
> developer and he/she signs up. Then you have to go to this site, click 
> on the correct name in the listing of applicants, go to the "advocate 
> this application" page, put in your Debian login and press the 
> 'submit' button. You will then receive an e-mail with an auth key 
> which you have to return GPG/PGP signed. When this is done, an AM will 
> be assigned to goes through the NM steps with the prospective developer."
> ***********************************************************
>
>
> Other examples of similar problematic wording are at the following 
> pages.  I doubt this is an exhaustive list.  In most cases, the change 
> would be a case of substituting "she/he" for "he" in a small number of 
> places.   I wonder if it is possible to automate the process of 
> searching webpages for "he" and "his" and subsitituting "he/she" and 
> "her/him", as a way of ensuring that there aren't any other pages on 
> www.debian.org with similarly sexist language.  Presumably other such 
> things could be done for the pages in languages other than English, if 
> the problem arises in those languages.
>
> http://people.debian.org/~mpalmer/debian-mentors_FAQ.html
>
> http://www.internatif.org/bortzmeyer/debian/sponsor/
> (I wonder if I were to fill out the form would it come up with "he's 
> looking for a sponsor", like the others?)
>
> http://www.debian.org/doc/packaging-manuals/developers-reference/ch-resources.en.html 
>
>
> http://www.debian.org/doc/packaging-manuals/developers-reference/ch-pkgs.en.html 
>
>
> http://www.debian.org/doc/packaging-manuals/developers-reference/ch-beyond-pkging.en.html 
>
>
> http://www.debian.org/security/faq
>
> http://www.debian.org/doc/user-manuals
>
> Thank you,
>
> Helen Faulkner.
>
>
>
>

Message #20 received at submit@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: George Wright <george@dexy.org>

To: reisio <debian-www@reisio.com>, 263084@bugs.debian.org

Cc: Helen Faulkner <helen_ml_faulkner@yahoo.co.uk>, submit@bugs.debian.org

Subject: Re: Bug#263084: Please change sexist language in debian (English) webpages

Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 01:28:53 +0100

On Tue, 2004-08-03 at 00:55, reisio wrote:
> IMO he/she & him/her is silly.  If someone wants to take time to make it 
> all completely unspecific (eg. "they", etc) kudos; otherwise I think 
> you're being paranoid.
> Helen Faulkner wrote:

Um...

a) pls don't top post
b) language *means* something - gender specific language *means*
gender-specific intent - don't _say_ 'computer' when you mean 'x86' or
'PPC', no?
c) 'paranoid' might be justified in another circumstance - complaints
about gender-specific language aren't 'paranoid' - they're practical -
welcome to the (early) 20th century. Normal humans use 'they' (or
'she/he') when they talk about humans, unless they are discussing
gender-specific issues. For example, saying 'he/she' when discussing
testicular cancer might be 'paranoid'

Using a gender-neutral pronoun when discussing J.Random User is just
sensible.

George

Message #25 received at 263084@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: George Wright <george@dexy.org>

To: reisio <debian-www@reisio.com>, 263084@bugs.debian.org

Cc: Helen Faulkner <helen_ml_faulkner@yahoo.co.uk>, submit@bugs.debian.org

Subject: Re: Bug#263084: Please change sexist language in debian (English) webpages

Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 01:28:53 +0100

On Tue, 2004-08-03 at 00:55, reisio wrote:
> IMO he/she & him/her is silly.  If someone wants to take time to make it 
> all completely unspecific (eg. "they", etc) kudos; otherwise I think 
> you're being paranoid.
> Helen Faulkner wrote:

Um...

a) pls don't top post
b) language *means* something - gender specific language *means*
gender-specific intent - don't _say_ 'computer' when you mean 'x86' or
'PPC', no?
c) 'paranoid' might be justified in another circumstance - complaints
about gender-specific language aren't 'paranoid' - they're practical -
welcome to the (early) 20th century. Normal humans use 'they' (or
'she/he') when they talk about humans, unless they are discussing
gender-specific issues. For example, saying 'he/she' when discussing
testicular cancer might be 'paranoid'

Using a gender-neutral pronoun when discussing J.Random User is just
sensible.

George

Message #30 received at 263084@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Matt Kraai <kraai@ftbfs.org>

To: Helen Faulkner <helen_ml_faulkner@yahoo.co.uk>, 263084@bugs.debian.org, control@bugs.debian.org

Subject: Re: Bug#263084: Please change sexist language in debian (English) webpages

Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 18:17:42 -0700

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

clone 263084 -1
reassign -1 developers-reference
thanks

On Mon, Aug 02, 2004 at 11:42:56PM +0100, Helen Faulkner wrote:
> This bug reports a problem with content on the website.  It was 
> suggested that I file it against www.debian.org, but if there is an 
> actual different package name for the website (I couldn't find one), 
> please file this bug against that.

www.debian.org is the right package for problems with the official
web site.  We don't handle all of the URLs you listed, however.

> I have noticed some examples of sexist language on the debian website, 
> looking at the English-language pages.  Most examples take the form of 
> assuming that a developer will always be male, a project leader will be 
> always male, etc.  This can be offputting and potentially offensive to 
> women like myself who wish to become debian developers, and encourages 
> people make the assumption that all developers etc are male.
> 
> Note that most of the pages I have looked at on the website are fine in 
> this regard.  The most common strategy seems to be avoidance of gendered 
> pronouns (ie writing to avoid use of he or she), and use of he/she where 
> it's too awkward to avoid the pronoun altogether.  Some pages use "they" 
> as a gender-neutral pronoun.

I prefer changing inappropriate uses of "he", "him", and "his" to
"they", "them", and "their".  It's easier than rewriting the text,
and the other option sounds awkward.

> The worst example I have seen is here:
> http://www.debian.org/devel/join/nm-advocate
> 
> I suggest rewording that page as follows (between ***s). The first 
> paragraph of this was written by Carla Schroder:
> ***********************************************************
> "There is a checklist of what a NM has to do. The NM needs a GPG
> key signed by a developer, then has to answer some Philosophy and
> Procedures questions. The Tasks and Skills test proves that the NM has 
> the experience to be a good Debian developer.
> 
> You should advocate someone when you think that he/she is ready to be a 
> developer -- i.e. has the required skills and has been involved with the 
> project for some time. Just ask yourself if you want to see this person 
> in Debian -- if the answer is yes then go ahead with your recommendation
> 
> The exact steps are like this: you agree to recommend a prospective 
> developer and he/she signs up. Then you have to go to this site, click 
> on the correct name in the listing of applicants, go to the "advocate 
> this application" page, put in your Debian login and press the 'submit' 
> button. You will then receive an e-mail with an auth key which you have 
> to return GPG/PGP signed. When this is done, an AM will be assigned to 
> goes through the NM steps with the prospective developer."
> ***********************************************************

I've removed the gender-specific terminology from this page.

> Other examples of similar problematic wording are at the following 
> pages.  I doubt this is an exhaustive list.  In most cases, the change 
> would be a case of substituting "she/he" for "he" in a small number of 
> places.   I wonder if it is possible to automate the process of 
> searching webpages for "he" and "his" and subsitituting "he/she" and 
> "her/him", as a way of ensuring that there aren't any other pages on 
> www.debian.org with similarly sexist language.  Presumably other such 
> things could be done for the pages in languages other than English, if 
> the problem arises in those languages.

I don't think we should perform an automatic conversion; at least
some of the words are probably correct (i.e., they do refer to men).

As for the other URLs,

> http://people.debian.org/~mpalmer/debian-mentors_FAQ.html

You'll need to e-mail mpalmer@debian.org about this.

> http://www.internatif.org/bortzmeyer/debian/sponsor/
> (I wonder if I were to fill out the form would it come up with "he's 
> looking for a sponsor", like the others?)

Please contact debian-sponsor@internatif.org.

> http://www.debian.org/doc/packaging-manuals/developers-reference/ch-resources.en.html
> 
> http://www.debian.org/doc/packaging-manuals/developers-reference/ch-pkgs.en.html
> 
> http://www.debian.org/doc/packaging-manuals/developers-reference/ch-beyond-pkging.en.html

I've cloned this bug and refiled it against the
developers-reference package.

> http://www.debian.org/security/faq

I've fixed the one problematic word I found on this page.  Please
let me know if there are others.

> http://www.debian.org/doc/user-manuals

Please report this to debian-doc@lists.debian.org.

In order to fix the other problems, it would be very helpful if
someone would run

 grep -Erw '(he|him|his)' english

in a webwml checkout and send either a patch or a list of pages
that should be fixed to this bug.

-- 
Matt Kraai            kraai@ftbfs.org            http://ftbfs.org/

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Message #37 received at 263084@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Matt Kraai <kraai@ftbfs.org>

To: reisio <debian-www@reisio.com>, 263084@bugs.debian.org

Subject: Re: Bug#263084: Please change sexist language in debian (English) webpages

Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 18:21:12 -0700

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

On Mon, Aug 02, 2004 at 07:55:13PM -0400, reisio wrote:
> IMO he/she & him/her is silly.  If someone wants to take time to make it 
> all completely unspecific (eg. "they", etc) kudos; otherwise I think 
> you're being paranoid.

I also prefer "they" to "he/she", but it's not being paranoid to
request non-discriminatory language.

-- 
Matt Kraai            kraai@ftbfs.org            http://ftbfs.org/

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Message #42 received at 263084@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Luk Claes <Luk.Claes@UGent.be>

To: 263084@bugs.debian.org

Subject: Re: Bug#263084: Please change sexist language in debian (English) webpages

Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 12:58:50 +0200 (MEST)

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

On Mon, 2 Aug 2004, Matt Kraai wrote:

> In order to fix the other problems, it would be very helpful if
> someone would run
>
>  grep -Erw '(he|him|his)' english
>
> in a webwml checkout and send either a patch or a list of pages
> that should be fixed to this bug.

Attached you can find the output. I have deleted the News and vote items
as well as some obvious correct uses of the male form. Though, I may have
deleted too much or too little, but I hope it can be a start.

I noticed a 'Him' on devel/leader that's why the line with that file is
kept.

Cheers

Luk

[list.txt (text/plain, attachment)]

Message #47 received at 263084@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Matt Kraai <kraai@ftbfs.org>

To: Luk Claes <Luk.Claes@UGent.be>, 263084@bugs.debian.org

Subject: Re: Bug#263084: Please change sexist language in debian (English) webpages

Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 15:59:05 -0700

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

On Tue, Aug 03, 2004 at 12:58:50PM +0200, Luk Claes wrote:
> On Mon, 2 Aug 2004, Matt Kraai wrote:
> 
> > In order to fix the other problems, it would be very helpful if
> > someone would run
> >
> >  grep -Erw '(he|him|his)' english
> >
> > in a webwml checkout and send either a patch or a list of pages
> > that should be fixed to this bug.
> 
> Attached you can find the output. I have deleted the News and vote items
> as well as some obvious correct uses of the male form. Though, I may have
> deleted too much or too little, but I hope it can be a start.
> 
> I noticed a 'Him' on devel/leader that's why the line with that file is
> kept.

I've fixed the incorrect usages in the pages you listed (except
for one in a DPL candidate's platform).  It would be helpful if
someone checked the rest of the site.

-- 
Matt Kraai            kraai@ftbfs.org            http://ftbfs.org/

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Message #52 received at 263084@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Tobias Toedter <t.toedter@gmx.net>

To: Matt Kraai <kraai@ftbfs.org>, 263084@bugs.debian.org

Subject: Re: Bug#263084: Please change sexist language in debian (English) webpages

Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 21:02:05 +0200

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Hash: SHA1

On Wednesday 04 August 2004 00:59, Matt Kraai wrote:
> I've fixed the incorrect usages in the pages you listed (except
> for one in a DPL candidate's platform).  It would be helpful if
> someone checked the rest of the site.

First of all, thank you for this effort. However, English is not my first 
language, that's why I wonder if it's common to use "they", "them", and 
"their" when referring to a single person. At least in German this would be 
highly unusual (to say the least; I'd rather consider this a mistake). Take 
this sentence for example (from vote/howto_proposal.wml):

   "This is to prevent the Project Secretary from missing a proposal in the
    huge volumes of mail generated on some of our lists and to prevent them
    from having to subscribe to each and every list created by the Project."

The Project Secretary is just one person, not a group. Is it still correct 
to use "them"? I'm sorry to bother you with this, it's just that I've never 
seen or heard such sentences.

Cheers,

- -- 

Tobias

    AMAZING BUT TRUE...
      If you took all the veins from your body and laid them together
      end to end, you'd die.
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Message #57 received at 263084@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Don Armstrong <don@donarmstrong.com>

To: 263084@bugs.debian.org

Subject: Re: Bug#263084: Please change sexist language in debian (English) webpages

Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 19:26:29 -0700

On Wed, 04 Aug 2004, Tobias Toedter wrote:
>    "This is to prevent the Project Secretary from missing a proposal
>    in the huge volumes of mail generated on some of our lists and to
>    prevent them from having to subscribe to each and every list
>    created by the Project."
> 
> The Project Secretary is just one person, not a group. Is it still
> correct to use "them"? I'm sorry to bother you with this, it's just
> that I've never seen or heard such sentences.

That's definetly suboptimal in this case.

What I'd suggest is the following:

    "This is to prevent the Project Secretary from missing a proposal
    in the huge volumes of mail generated on some of our lists and to
    eliminate the need for the Project Secretary to subscribe to each
    and every Project list."

Where possible, eliminate pronouns and proper nouns, if not possible,
use they|them instead of he|him, if not possible, use the proper noun.


Don Armstrong

-- 
Nothing is as inevitable as a mistake whose time has come.
 -- Tussman's Law

http://www.donarmstrong.com
http://rzlab.ucr.edu

Message #62 received at 263084@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Colin Watson <cjwatson@debian.org>

To: Tobias Toedter <t.toedter@gmx.net>, 263084@bugs.debian.org

Cc: Matt Kraai <kraai@ftbfs.org>

Subject: Re: Bug#263084: Please change sexist language in debian (English) webpages

Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 03:48:52 +0100

On Wed, Aug 04, 2004 at 09:02:05PM +0200, Tobias Toedter wrote:
> On Wednesday 04 August 2004 00:59, Matt Kraai wrote:
> > I've fixed the incorrect usages in the pages you listed (except
> > for one in a DPL candidate's platform).  It would be helpful if
> > someone checked the rest of the site.
> 
> First of all, thank you for this effort. However, English is not my first 
> language, that's why I wonder if it's common to use "they", "them", and 
> "their" when referring to a single person.

It's a reasonably common workaround for the lack of a real
non-gender-specific third-person singular pronoun in English, yes, and
has been in use as such for centuries.

There are occasional debates about its grammatical correctness, but I
believe that it sounds natural to most native speakers.

> At least in German this would be highly unusual (to say the least; I'd
> rather consider this a mistake).

I'd expect translators to handle it in whatever way is appropriate in
their language.

> Take this sentence for example (from vote/howto_proposal.wml):
> 
>    "This is to prevent the Project Secretary from missing a proposal in the
>     huge volumes of mail generated on some of our lists and to prevent them
>     from having to subscribe to each and every list created by the Project."
> 
> The Project Secretary is just one person, not a group. Is it still correct 
> to use "them"? I'm sorry to bother you with this, it's just that I've never 
> seen or heard such sentences.

That sentence doesn't feel at all unusual to me.

Cheers,

-- 
Colin Watson                                  [cjwatson@flatline.org.uk]

Message #67 received at 263084@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Matt Kraai <kraai@ftbfs.org>

To: Don Armstrong <don@donarmstrong.com>, 263084@bugs.debian.org

Subject: Re: Bug#263084: Please change sexist language in debian (English) webpages

Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 20:40:50 -0700

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

On Wed, Aug 04, 2004 at 07:26:29PM -0700, Don Armstrong wrote:
> On Wed, 04 Aug 2004, Tobias Toedter wrote:
> >    "This is to prevent the Project Secretary from missing a proposal
> >    in the huge volumes of mail generated on some of our lists and to
> >    prevent them from having to subscribe to each and every list
> >    created by the Project."
> > 
> > The Project Secretary is just one person, not a group. Is it still
> > correct to use "them"? I'm sorry to bother you with this, it's just
> > that I've never seen or heard such sentences.
> 
> That's definetly suboptimal in this case.

Why?

-- 
Matt Kraai            kraai@ftbfs.org            http://ftbfs.org/

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Message #72 received at 263084@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Don Armstrong <don@donarmstrong.com>

To: 263084@bugs.debian.org

Subject: Re: Bug#263084: Please change sexist language in debian (English) webpages

Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 20:52:38 -0700

On Wed, 04 Aug 2004, Matt Kraai wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 04, 2004 at 07:26:29PM -0700, Don Armstrong wrote:
> > On Wed, 04 Aug 2004, Tobias Toedter wrote:
> > >    "This is to prevent the Project Secretary from missing a proposal
> > >    in the huge volumes of mail generated on some of our lists and to
> > >    prevent them from having to subscribe to each and every list
> > >    created by the Project."
> > > 
> > > The Project Secretary is just one person, not a group. Is it still
> > > correct to use "them"? I'm sorry to bother you with this, it's just
> > > that I've never seen or heard such sentences.
> > 
> > That's definetly suboptimal in this case.
> 
> Why?

Them (and to a lesser extent, they) tends to indicate the
singular. While they is becomming a more common replacement for a
class of people, when we're talking about a specific position, a
singular form is generally more appropriate... but I suppose you could
have grammarians arguing for millenia over this issue.

That's why I suggest punting and avoiding the issue entirely wherever
possible.

Anyway, it's just a suggestion. Do whatever you feel works best.


Don Armstrong

-- 
Of course Pacman didn't influence us as kids. If it did, we'd be
running around in darkened rooms, popping pills and listening to
repetitive music.

http://www.donarmstrong.com
http://rzlab.ucr.edu

Message #77 received at 263084@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Tobias Toedter <t.toedter@gmx.net>

To: Colin Watson <cjwatson@debian.org>

Cc: 263084@bugs.debian.org, Matt Kraai <kraai@ftbfs.org>

Subject: Re: Bug#263084: Please change sexist language in debian (English) webpages

Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 20:01:51 +0200

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On Thursday 05 August 2004 04:48, Colin Watson wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 04, 2004 at 09:02:05PM +0200, Tobias Toedter wrote:
> > First of all, thank you for this effort. However, English is not my
> > first language, that's why I wonder if it's common to use "they",
> > "them", and "their" when referring to a single person.
>
> It's a reasonably common workaround for the lack of a real
> non-gender-specific third-person singular pronoun in English, yes, and
> has been in use as such for centuries.
>
> There are occasional debates about its grammatical correctness, but I
> believe that it sounds natural to most native speakers.

Alright, thanks for clearing this up.

> > At least in German this would be highly unusual (to say the least; I'd
> > rather consider this a mistake).
>
> I'd expect translators to handle it in whatever way is appropriate in
> their language.

Sure. I guess we'll have to discuss this on -l10n-german, though.

Cheers,

- -- 

Tobias

    AMAZING BUT TRUE...
      If you took all the veins from your body and laid them together
      end to end, you'd die.
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Message #82 received at 263084@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: MJ Ray <mjr@dsl.pipex.com>

To: 263084@bugs.debian.org

Cc: helen_ml_faulkner@yahoo.co.uk

Subject: "Sexist language" not fact

Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 12:14:47 +0100

The document linked from the Debian-Women FAQ says in 
http://www.ai.mit.edu/people/ellens/Gender/pap/node21.html#SECTION00530000000000000000 
that "gender-neutral language" is "currently under debate". As I 
understand it, one's opinion probably depends on the position taken 
about behaviourism and mentalism, and things like the Sapir-Whorf 
hypothesis.

It seems useful or sensible to balance obvious unjustifiable male 
defaults over time, mostly as a consequence of other actions (such as 
delegates being more representative). A simplistic purge of 
third-person-singular pronouns and the "-man" morpheme seems to make 
it harder to read for everyone. Is there clear support that there's 
benefit from a purge?

-- 
MJR/slef    My Opinion Only and not of any group I know
http://www.ttllp.co.uk/ for creative copyleft computing
Please email about: BT alternative for line rental+DSL;
Education on SMEs+EU FP6; office filing that works fast

Message #87 received at 263084@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Matt Kraai <kraai@ftbfs.org>

To: MJ Ray <mjr@dsl.pipex.com>, 263084@bugs.debian.org

Cc: helen_ml_faulkner@yahoo.co.uk

Subject: Re: Bug#263084: "Sexist language" not fact

Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 15:02:10 -0700

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On Sat, Aug 07, 2004 at 12:14:47PM +0100, MJ Ray wrote:
> It seems useful or sensible to balance obvious unjustifiable male 
> defaults over time, mostly as a consequence of other actions (such as 
> delegates being more representative). A simplistic purge of 
> third-person-singular pronouns and the "-man" morpheme seems to make 
> it harder to read for everyone.

I've been converting "he", "him", "his", and "himself" to "they",
"them", "their", and "themself" respectively.  I don't think the
new version is harder to read.

>                                 Is there clear support that there's 
> benefit from a purge?

Helen stated that the original version is discouraging; changing
the terminology presumably makes it less so.

-- 
Matt Kraai            kraai@ftbfs.org            http://ftbfs.org/

1. http://lists.debian.org/debian-women/2004/08/msg00003.html

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Message #92 received at 263084@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: MJ Ray <mjr@dsl.pipex.com>

To: Matt Kraai <kraai@ftbfs.org>

Cc: 263084@bugs.debian.org, helen_ml_faulkner@yahoo.co.uk

Subject: Re: Bug#263084: "Sexist language" not fact

Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 03:41:35 +0100

On 2004-08-07 23:02:10 +0100 Matt Kraai <kraai@ftbfs.org> wrote:

> I've been converting "he", "him", "his", and "himself" to "they",
> "them", "their", and "themself" respectively.  I don't think the
> new version is harder to read.

For example, in http://www.debian.org/devel/join/nm-advocate it is no 
longer clear after "signed by a developer" whether "they" refers only 
to "NM" or to both "NM" and the developer who signed. I think it 
becomes clear at the end of the paragraph it's singular, but that's 
quite a wait.

I don't think a few anecdotes are a clear net benefit, given some of 
debian-women's preferred references say it's merely debatable.

-- 
MJR/slef    My Opinion Only and not of any group I know
http://www.ttllp.co.uk/ for creative copyleft computing
Please email about: BT alternative for line rental+DSL;
Education on SMEs+EU FP6; office filing that works fast

Message #97 received at 263084@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Matt Kraai <kraai@ftbfs.org>

To: MJ Ray <mjr@dsl.pipex.com>

Cc: 263084@bugs.debian.org, helen_ml_faulkner@yahoo.co.uk

Subject: Re: Bug#263084: "Sexist language" not fact

Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 00:48:22 -0700

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On Sun, Aug 08, 2004 at 03:41:35AM +0100, MJ Ray wrote:
> On 2004-08-07 23:02:10 +0100 Matt Kraai <kraai@ftbfs.org> wrote:
> 
> >I've been converting "he", "him", "his", and "himself" to "they",
> >"them", "their", and "themself" respectively.  I don't think the
> >new version is harder to read.
> 
> For example, in http://www.debian.org/devel/join/nm-advocate it is no 
> longer clear after "signed by a developer" whether "they" refers only 
> to "NM" or to both "NM" and the developer who signed. I think it 
> becomes clear at the end of the paragraph it's singular, but that's 
> quite a wait.

It seems clear to me that the "they"s later in the sentence refer
to the same person as the first one, which to me refers to the NM
unambiguously.  If you have a suggestion for how it could be
improved that doesn't involve reverting to "he", I'd be happy to
apply it.

> I don't think a few anecdotes are a clear net benefit, given some of 
> debian-women's preferred references say it's merely debatable.

Are there women who've said that they prefer "he" and friends?

-- 
Matt Kraai            kraai@ftbfs.org            http://ftbfs.org/

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Message #102 received at 263084@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: anon@pimout2-ext.prodigy.net

Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 20:29:36 -0500

I would not classify myself as a grammarian, but English is my first language and I try to use correct grammar most of the time.  The use of "they" to refer to a single person is entirely incorrect.  There is no debate.  The grammatically correct way to refer to a single person when the gender of the person is unknown is to defer to the masculine and use "he."  Feminists don't like this because they don't like the phrase, "defer to the masculine."  Personally, I think you should use "he" on the website.  It is not sexist; "he" is commonly used when the gender is not known.  English just works like that.  If this correct usage is found unacceptable for some reason, use "he/she" or alternate between "he" and "she."  That is how other people who are trying to be both politically and grammatically correct deal with this "problem."

-- 
There's no need for red-hot pokers.  Hell is -- other people!
        -Jean-Paul Sartre

Message #107 received at 263084@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Jutta Wrage <jw@witch.westfalen.de>

To: 263084@bugs.debian.org

Cc: Debian WWW <debian-www@lists.debian.org>

Subject: Re: Bug#263084: (no subject)

Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 14:06:01 +0100

Am Samstag, 11.12.04 um 02:29 Uhr schrieb anon@pimout2-ext.prodigy.net:

>  The use of "they" to refer to a single person is entirely incorrect.

That the page where that error occurs is not mentioned, the bug report 
seems to be more a general statement for using "he" instead of "she".

Correct usage of grammar is one point, But that should not lead to 
vanishing women using Debian. Women are more than half of the world and 
should be visible.

Language is a social thing and language can change. So using "he" even 
if women are meant, too - or sometimes especially -, is old fashion and 
not acceptable any longer since many years.

greetings

Jutta

-- 
http://www.witch.westfalen.de
http://witch.muensterland.org

Message #112 received at 263084@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Matt Kraai <kraai@ftbfs.org>

To: anon@pimout2-ext.prodigy.net, 263084@bugs.debian.org

Cc: debian-www@lists.debian.org

Subject: Re: Bug#263084: (no subject)

Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 10:24:37 -0800

On Fri, Dec 10, 2004 at 08:29:36PM -0500, anon@pimout2-ext.prodigy.net wrote:
> I would not classify myself as a grammarian, but English is my first language and I try to use correct grammar most of the time.  The use of "they" to refer to a single person is entirely incorrect.  There is no debate.  The grammatically correct way to refer to a single person when the gender of the person is unknown is to defer to the masculine and use "he."  Feminists don't like this because they don't like the phrase, "defer to the masculine."  Personally, I think you should use "he" on the website.  It is not sexist; "he" is commonly used when the gender is not known.  English just works like that.  If this correct usage is found unacceptable for some reason, use "he/she" or alternate between "he" and "she."  That is how other people who are trying to be both politically and grammatically correct deal with this "problem."

Please see

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they

-- 
Matt

Message #117 received at 263084@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Branden Robinson <branden@debian.org>

To: 263084@bugs.debian.org, control@bugs.debian.org

Cc: Helen Faulkner <helen_ml_faulkner@yahoo.co.uk>

Subject: Re: Debian Bugs information: logs for Bug#263084

Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 18:20:20 -0500

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# Per Helen Faulkner's request, I am making myself the submitter of this bug,
# and cloning it into discrete reports that can be independently resolved.
submitter 263084 Branden Robinson <branden@debian.org>
clone 263084 -1 -2 -3 -4 -5
retitle 263084 www.debian.org: please fix gender-biased language in devel/join/nm-advocate
# > From: Matt Kraai <kraai@ftbfs.org>
# > I've removed the gender-specific terminology from this page.
# This one can therefore be closed.
close 263084

# > http://www.debian.org/doc/packaging-manuals/developers-reference/ch-resources.en.html
retitle -1 developers-reference: please fix gender-biased language in ch-resources.en.html
reassign -1 developers-reference
# This page has been recently edited (2005-01-10); I can only find one
# remaining occurrence of "he", "him", or "his":
# > On the other hand, a CD-ROM vendor could easily check the individual
# > package licenses of the packages in <em>non-free</em> and include as many
# > on the CD-ROMs as he's allowed to.  (Since this varies greatly from vendor
# > to vendor, this job can't be done by the Debian developers.)

# > http://www.debian.org/doc/packaging-manuals/developers-reference/ch-pkgs.en.html
retitle -2 developers-reference: please fix gender-biased language in ch-pkgs.en.html
reassign -2 developers-reference
# There is only one occurrence of he/him/his on this page:
# > <p>
# > There are a few ways a developer can learn of a security problem:
# > <ul>
# > <li>
# > he notices it on a public forum (mailing list, web site, etc.)

# > http://www.debian.org/doc/packaging-manuals/developers-reference/ch-beyond-pkging.en.html
retitle -3 developers-reference: please fix gender-biased language in ch-beyond-pkging.en.html
reassign -3 developers-reference
# This page seems to have been stripped of its gender biased-language.
close -3

# > http://www.debian.org/security/faq
retitle -4 www.debian.org: please fix gender-biased language in security/faq
# This page seems to have been stripped of its gender biased-language.
close -4

# > http://www.debian.org/doc/user-manuals
retitle -5 www.debian.org: please fix gender-biased language in doc/user-manuals
# This page still has some occurrences of gender-biased language.
# 1:
# > <h2><a name="meta" id="meta">Debian META Manual</a></h2>
# > <blockquote>
# >   This manual tells the user where to look for the document that covers
# >   his questions.
# 2:
# > <h2><a name="tutorial" id="tutorial">Debian Tutorial</a></h2>
# > <blockquote>
# > This manual is for a new Linux user, to help such a user get acquainted
# > with Linux once he has installed it, or for a new Linux user on a system
# > which someone else is administering.
# 3:
# > <h2><a name="userref" id="userref">Debian User Reference Manual</a></h2>
# > <blockquote>
# >   This manual provides at least an overview of everything a user should know
# >   about his Debian GNU/Linux system (i.e. setting up X, how to configure
# >   network, accessing floppy disks, etc.). It is intended to bridge the gap
# >   between the Debian Tutorial and the detailed manual and info pages
# >   supplied with each package.

# > http://people.debian.org/~mpalmer/debian-mentors_FAQ.html
# The above is not within Debian's jursidiction or under its control.
# In any event, it seems to have been modified already, judging by the
# absence of the string "him" and heavy use of the "singular they".

# > http://www.internatif.org/bortzmeyer/debian/sponsor/
# > (I wonder if I were to fill out the form would it come up with "he's
# > looking for a sponsor", like the others?)
# The above is not within Debian's jursidiction or under its control.
# Moreover, I checked out the link today, and it says it has been
# "DISCONTINUED".  I see no remaining gender-biased language there in any
# event.

thanks

Relevant parts of Helen's report are reproduced below.

On Mon, Jan 10, 2005 at 03:03:32PM -0800, Debian Bug Tracking System wrote:
>                        Debian Bug report logs - #263084
>           Please change sexist language in debian (English) webpages
> 
>    Package: www.debian.org; Reported by: Helen Faulkner
>    <helen_ml_faulkner@yahoo.co.uk>; Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 22:48:06 UTC;
>    Maintainer for www.debian.org is James Treacy and others
>    <debian-www@lists.debian.org>.

> Package: www.debian.org
> 
> This bug reports a problem with content on the website.  It was
> suggested that I file it against www.debian.org, but if there is an
> actual different package name for the website (I couldn't find one),
> please file this bug against that.
> 
> I have noticed some examples of sexist language on the debian website,
> looking at the English-language pages.  Most examples take the form of
> assuming that a developer will always be male, a project leader will be
> always male, etc.  This can be offputting and potentially offensive to
> women like myself who wish to become debian developers, and encourages
> people make the assumption that all developers etc are male.
> 
> Note that most of the pages I have looked at on the website are fine in
> this regard.  The most common strategy seems to be avoidance of gendered
> pronouns (ie writing to avoid use of he or she), and use of he/she where
> it's too awkward to avoid the pronoun altogether.  Some pages use "they"
> as a gender-neutral pronoun.
[...]
> Other examples of similar problematic wording are at the following
> pages.  I doubt this is an exhaustive list.  In most cases, the change
> would be a case of substituting "she/he" for "he" in a small number of
> places.   I wonder if it is possible to automate the process of
> searching webpages for "he" and "his" and subsitituting "he/she" and
> "her/him", as a way of ensuring that there aren't any other pages on
> www.debian.org with similarly sexist language.  Presumably other such
> things could be done for the pages in languages other than English, if
> the problem arises in those languages.
[...]
> 
> Thank you,
> 
> Helen Faulkner.

-- 
G. Branden Robinson                |     Never attribute to malice that
Debian GNU/Linux                   |     which can be adequately explained
branden@debian.org                 |     by stupidity.
http://people.debian.org/~branden/ |     -- Hanlon's Razor

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