Debian Bug report logs - #19920
[Priorities] Packages Optional, should be Extra

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Message #5 received at submit@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Ian Jackson <ian@chiark.greenend.org.uk>

To: submit@bugs.debian.org

Subject: Packages Optional, should be Extra

Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 20:52:58 +0000

Package: ftp.debian.org
Version: 1998-03-18 18:48:52 +0000

It is my opinion that the following Optional packages should be extra,
because they are only useful to people with special requirements or
hardware.  Perhaps some discussion needs to be had with the package
maintainers.

Package: adbbs
Description: ad! BBS. A perl based bbs or easy menu system.

Package: apache-dev
Description: Apache webserver development kit

Package: apcalc-dev
Description: Library for arbitrary precision arithmetic

Package: apple2
Description: Apple ][ Emulator
(because it needs the Apple ROMs which can only be legally used if you
own a Mac.)

Package: arena
Description: an HTML 3.0 compliant WWW browser for X
(because it is very buggy, at least last time I used it.  Perhaps it
is better now)

Package: bash-builtins
Description: Bash loadable builtins - headers & examples

Package: amanda-client
Description: Advanced Maryland Automatic Network Disk Archiver (Client)

Package: amanda-server
Description: Advanced Maryland Automatic Network Disk Archiver (Server)

Package: browser-history
Depends: libc6, xlib6g (>= 3.3-5)
(Appears just to support Netscape, but not clear.  Maybe it should be
in contrib)

Package: bulkmail
Description: Speed up delivery of e-mail to large numbers of recipients.

Package: camediaplay
Description: Still Camera Digital Interface
(You need a camera.)

Package: cern-httpd
Description: The CERN HTTP (World-Wide Web) server
(We should only install one webserver by `default' even in a large
system, and it should be apache.)

Package: boa
Description: Lightweight and High Performance WebServer
(We should only install one webserver by `default' even in a large
system, and it should be apache.)

Package: dhttpd
Description: Minimal secure webserver. No cgi-bin support!
(We should only install one webserver by `default' even in a large
system, and it should be apache.)

Package: ncsa
Description: Small featureless NCSA Webserver
(We should only install one webserver by `default' even in a large
system, and it should be apache.)

Package: wn
Description: Secure and efficient http server with advanced features.
(We should only install one webserver by `default' even in a large
system, and it should be apache.)

Package: exim
Description: Exim Mailer
Conflicts: mail-transport-agent
(But Smail is Important.)

Package: exim-doc
Description: Exim MTA info documentation

Package: eximon
Description: X-windows monitor for the exim mail transport agent.

Package: cfingerd
Description: Configurable and secure finger daemon
(This daemon is not so secure; its documentation claims that syntax
errors in the config file can cause coredumps and the author seems
unworried.  This is not suitable for use unless you know what you're
doing.)

Package: chimera2
Description: Web browser for X
...
 This is an alpha-test version; some of the rendering routines are buggy.

Package: cti-ifhp
Description: Printer filter for HP LaserJet printers

Package: debmake
Description: Debianizing Tool and automated binary generation
(We should be deprecating debmake.)

Package: devscripts
Description: Scripts to make the life of a Debian Package maintainer easier.
(Christoph scripts.  Contains namespace pollution, strange setuid
binaries, &c.)

Package: dhcp
Description: DHCP automatic IP address assignment
(This is a DHCP server, I think.  See my other bug report about dhcp
et al.)

Package: display-dhammapada
Description: Displays verse from Dhammapada.
(Seems obscure to me ...)

Package: djtools
Description: Tools for HP DeskJet printer.

Package: echo-linux
Description: French on-line magazine "L'Echo de Linux"

Package: elisp-manual
Description: Emacs Lisp Reference Manual

Package: elvis-tiny
Description: Tiny vi compatible editor for the base system.
(Should be Extra if any other vi-a-like's are Optional or better.)

Package: emacs-el
Description: GNU Emacs LISP (.el) files.

Package: emacs-lisp-intro
Description: Programming in Emacs Lisp: An Introduction

Package: emacspeak
Description: speech output interface to Emacs

Package: expect5.24-dev
Description: Development files for the expect5.24 package.

Package: floppybackup
Description: Floppy backup using a diversity of floppy formats
(Surely noone installing all of `Optional' could want to back up onto
floppies ?)

Package: frad
Description: Frame Relay Tools for DLCI/SDLA Drivers in 2.0/2.1 kernels.

Package: freetype1-dev
Description: FreeType development files (static library and headers).

Package: gap
Description: gap is a system for computational discrete algebra.
installed-size: 24180

Package: gdkimlib-dev
Description: Library that allows to display images within gdk/gtk

Package: gdkimlib0
Description: Library that allows to display images within gdk/gtk
(That's all of the descriptions, so I'm guessing)

Package: gltt-bin
Description: sample programs using gltt
(gltt is apparently `library to read and draw TrueType fonts in OpenGL
programs' and should be Optional because something depends on it.)

Package: gltt1-dev
Description: development kit for gltt

Package: glut-doc
Description: Example programs and support documentation for GLUT.
(glut is apparently `The OpenGL Utility Toolkit' and should be
Optional because something depends on it.)

Package: glut-data
Description: Data files for use with some of the examples in glut-doc

Package: glutg3-dev
Description: Development library for GLUT.

Package: gnome-dev
Description: Header files and development libraries for gnome

Package: gstep-base-dbg
Description: GNUstep Base static libraries.
installed-size: 5561

Package: hello
Description: The classic greeting, and a good example

Package: hypermail
Description: Create HTML archives of mailing lists
(Most people don't run mailing lists.)

Package: icmake
Description: Intelligent C-like MAKEr, or the ICce MAKE utility

Package: inn-dev
Description: The libinn.a library and manpages.

Package: innfeed
Description: This is the new INN feeder program `innfeed.'
(You'll know it if you want this.)

Package: intercal
Description: ick - Compiler for the Intercal language

Package: iplogger
Description: TCP and ICMP event logger
(Uses packet tracing - should not be turned on unless the user knows
about it.)

Package: jail
Description: Just Another ICMP Logger
(I haven't checked, but I think this uses packet tracing too.)

Package: journal-dev
Description: Scripts to help building an on-line magazine

Package: kernel-source-2.0.33
Description: Linux kernel source.
(et al.  Source code distributed as a .deb should not be installed
unless the user knows they want it.)

Package: lambdacore
Description: core database for lambdamoo
(Most people do not want to run a mud locally.)

Package: lambdamoo
Description: a server for an online multiuser virtual world

Package: lambdamoo-docs
Description: LambdaMOO user and programmer manuals

Package: jhcore
Description: Jay's House Core, an enhanced core database for lambdamoo

Package: pj-base
Description: PLUTO JOURNAL: Italian OnLine Magazine

Package: pj97n08
Description: Issue 8 (January) of PLUTO JOURNAL 1997 (in Italian).

Package: lesstif-altdbg
Description: Libc5 compatibility static LessTif library for debugging.

Package: lesstif-altdev
Description: Libc5 compatibility LessTif development library and headers.

Package: lesstifg-dbg
Description: Static library with debugging symbols for LessTif.

Package: lg-base
Description: Shared files for the Linux Gazette.

Package: lg-issue01to08
Description: Issues 1 to 8 of the Linux Gazette.

Package: lg-issue09
Description: Issue 9 of the Linux Gazette.
(et al)

Package: libc5-altdbg
Description: The Linux C library version 5 (alternative debug files).

Package: libc5-altdev
Description: The Linux C library version 5 (alternative dev files).

Package: libc6-pic
Description: The GNU C library version 2 (PIC library)
installed-size: 7308

Package: boot-floppies
Description: Scripts to create the Debian installation floppy set.
Depends: libc6-pic, slang0.99.38-pic, mkrboot, dosfstools (>=1.0-9.1), syslinux
(>= 1.30), sysutils, makedev (>=1.6-15), newt0.21, newt0.21-dev, popt

Package: libcanna1g-dev
Description: Canna Static Library and Headers (Libc6).
 Canna is a Japanese input system available in Free Software.
 This package includes header and static libraries.

Package: libcompface1-altdev
Description: Compress/decompress images for mailheaders, libc5 devel

Package: libdl1-altdev
Description: The Linux dynamic linker library (alternative dev files).

Package: libdnd1-dev
Description: OffiX drag and drop protocol (development files).

Package: libelfg0-dev
Description: an ELF object file access library: development files

Package: libgdbm1-altdev
Description: GNU dbm database routines (development files) [libc5 compat]

Package: libgpm1-altdev
Description: General Purpose Mouse Library, development files [libc5]

Package: libgpmg1-dev
Description: General Purpose Mouse Library, development files [libc6]

Package: libgsm-bin
Description: User binaries for a GSM speech compressor.

Package: libgsm1
Description: Shared libraries for GSM speech compressor.

Package: libgsm1-dev
Description: Development libraries for a GSM speech compressor.

Package: libjpeg-altdev
Description: Development files for the IJG jpeg library [libc5]

Package: liblzo-dev
Description: Development support files for the lzo library.

Package: libnatali-dev
Description: An AppleTalk Library Interface compatibility library for Netatalk

Package: libpam0-altdev
Description: Header files for libpam [libc5]

Package: libpam0-altutil
Description: Authentication modules and system binaries for libpam [libc5]

Package: libpam0g-dbg
Description: Static library with debugging symbols for libpam [libc6]

Package: libpam0g-dev
Description: Header files for libpam [libc6]

Package: libpcap-dev
Description: Development library for libpcap.

Package: libpng0-altdev
Description: PNG library - libc5 development compatibility package

Package: libproplist0-dev
Description: C headers, static libraries and documentation for libPropList

Package: libpwdb-doc
Description: Documentation for libpwdb

Package: libpwdb0-altdev
Description: Header files for libpwdb [libc5]

Package: libpwdb0g-dbg
Description: Static library with debugging symbols for libpwdb [libc6]

Package: libpwdb0g-dev
Description: Header files for libpwdb [libc6]

Package: libreadline2-altdev
Description: GNU readline and history libraries, development files. [libc5]

Package: libreadlineg2-dbg
Description: GNU readline and history libraries, debugging libraries. [libc6]

Package: librx1-altdev
Description: Development library for rx. [libc5]

Package: librx1g-dbg
Description: Debugging library for rx. [libc6]

Package: libtclobjc-dev
Description: Development library for libtclobjc.

Package: libtiff3-altdev
Description: tiff development files [libc5]

Package: libwine-dev
Description: WINdows Emulator (Development Files)

Package: libwine0.0.971116
Description: WINdows Emulator (Library)

Package: libwmaker0
Description: Shared libraries for WindowMaker aware applications.

Package: libwmaker0-dev
Description: Static libraries and headers for WindowMaker applications.

Package: libwraster0
Description: Shared libraries of WindowMaker rasterizer.

Package: libwraster0-dev
Description: Static libraries and headers of WindowMaker rasterizer.

Package: mandelspawn
Description: a distributed processing Mandelbrot program for X
(You need many computers.)

Package: mhonarc
Description: Mail to HTML converter
(Another list archiver.)

Package: mingetty
Description: Console-only getty.
(We already have a getty.)

Package: mkhybrid
Description: CD-ROM authoring tool.  Creates CD-ROM filesystem images
(You need a CD writer.)

Package: mkrboot
Description: Make a kernel + rootimage bootable from one disk or from DOS

Package: mpich
Description: Parallel computing system

Package: mserver
Description: Network Modem Server

Package: mtx
Description: controls tape autochangers

Package: nas
Description: The Network Audio System (NAS).
(I _believe_ this thing still takes over /dev/audio et al if you
install it, preventing other programs from working.)

Package: ncurses3.0-altdev
Description: Old libc5 curses - Developer's libraries

Package: ncurses3.4-dbg
Description: Video terminal manipulation - Debugging/profiling libraries.

Package: netcdf-altdev
Description: Development kit for NetCDF. (libc5 version)

Package: mh
Description: A set of electronic mail handling programs.
(`nmh' is new MH and conflicts with mh.)

Package: objpak-dev
Description: Developers kit for objpak.

Package: octave-staticlibs
Description: Static libraries for the GNU Octave language

Package: perl-debug
Description: View internals of Perl and debug Perl itself.
...
 You probably don't need this.  perl -dead will bring up the Perl source
 debugger and tell you much of what you want to know.  See perldebug(1).

Package: pptp-linux
Description: PPTP Microsoft Compatible Tunneling Protocol

Package: proftpd
Description: Versatile, virtual-hosting FTP daemon
Conflicts: wu-ftpd
(But wu-ftpd is Optional)

Package: python-regrtest
Description: Regression test for the python distribution.
 Regression test for the python distribution. You only need to install
 this if you don't trust the python packages.

Package: python-gdbm
Description: GDBM database support for Python (obsolete).
 GDBM database support module for Python. The gdbm module is obsoleted
 by anydb.
(And it looks like anydb is part of python-misc.)

Package: python-stdwin
Description: Stdwin support for Python (obsolete).
 Platform-independent user interface toolkit for Python. Stdwin is
 now obsolete and will be removed from the Python distribution.

Package: radiusd-livingston
Description: Remote Authentication Dial-In User Service (RADIUS) server
(You need a modem bank to run this !)

Package: regex0-altdev
Description: GNU regular expression library, development files. [libc5]

Package: regex0g-dbg
Description: GNU regular expression library, debugging libraries. [libc6]

Package: regina-dev
Description: The Regina REXX interpreter, development files.

Package: sane
Description: API for scanners

Package: slang0.99.34-dev
Description: S-Lang libc5 backward compatibility development kit
(We also have slang0.99.38-dev)

Package: smartlist
Description: Versatile and Intelligent List Processor

Package: squid-novm
Description: Internet Object Cache (WWW proxy cache) NOVM version
Conflicts: squid

Package: svgalib1-altdev
Description: Shared, non-x, graphics library used by Ghostscript et al.

Package: tcl76-altdev
Description: The Tool Command Language (TCL) v7.6 - libc5 Development Package.

Package: tclx76-dev
Description: Extended Tcl (TclX) version 7.6 -- development package

Package: tk42-altdev
Description: The Tk toolkit for TCL and X11 v4.2 - libc5 Development Package.

Package: v-altdev
Description: V - a C++ GUI Framework (development files for libc5).

Package: v-dbg
Description: V - a C++ GUI Framework (library debugging files).

Package: vm-el
Description: A mail user agent for Emacs (uncompiled elsip source files)

Package: win32binutils
Description: The GNU assembler, linker and binary utilities (Win32 version).

Package: win32gcc
Description: The GNU C compiler (Win32 version).

Package: win32libs
Description: POSIX emulation libraries for the Win32 API.

Package: wine
Description: WINdows Emulator (Binary Emulator)

Package: wine-doc
Description: WINdows Emulator (Documentation)

Package: wmaker-superfluous
Description: WindowMaker compiled with superfluous options
... The WindowMaker author thinks this is "useless
 stuff that bloats and slows down WindowMaker"

Package: wmf
Description: Web Mail Folder

Package: wu-ftpd-academ
Description: A powerful replacement for the standard ftpd
Conflicts: wu-ftpd
Provides: wu-ftpd

Package: x10
Description: Operate X-10 electrical power control modules.

Package: x10-automate
Description: GUI interface for x10 power line control utility

Package: x48
Description: Emulator of Hewlett-Packards HP48 calculator
...You need an original HP48
 calculator to dump its ROM.

Package: xcdroast
Description: X based CD-writer software

Package: xemacs19-supportel
Description: el library files for XEmacs 19.16.

Package: xemacs19
Description: XEmacs 19.16 editor and kitchen sink
Conflicts: xemacs, xemacs-widget

Package: xemacs19-support
Description: Support and architecture independant files for XEmacs 19.16.

Package: xemacs20-supportel
Description: el library files for XEmacs 20.4.

Package: xlib6-altdev
Description: Include files and libraries for libc5 X client development

Package: xpm4-altdev
Description: X Pixmap libraries (for libc5) - development

Package: xslib
Description: Statically linked versions of the libraries in xlib
 You only need to install this package if you intend to compile
 statically linked X clients against libc5.

Package: xview-altdev
Description: XView development tools [libc5]

Package: zlib1-altdev
Description: compression library - development (for libc5)

-- 
Ian Jackson, at home.           Local/personal: ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk
ian@chiark.greenend.org.uk         http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~ijackson/

Message #10 received at 19920@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Mark Baker <mbaker@iee.org>

To: Ian Jackson <ian@chiark.greenend.org.uk>, 19920@bugs.debian.org

Subject: Re: Bug#19920: Packages Optional, should be Extra

Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 22:01:29 +0000

On Wed, Mar 18, 1998 at 08:52:58PM +0000, Ian Jackson wrote:
> hardware.  Perhaps some discussion needs to be had with the package
> maintainers.

Yes, I think it does in many cases. So why file a bug on ftp.debian.org
which Guy can't deal with himself?

> Package: exim
> Description: Exim Mailer
> Conflicts: mail-transport-agent
> (But Smail is Important.)

We haven't decided whether to make exim standard (if we do, of course, smail
should replace exim on your list)

> Package: display-dhammapada
> Description: Displays verse from Dhammapada.
> (Seems obscure to me ...)

Is obscurity a good reason?

> Package: elvis-tiny
> Description: Tiny vi compatible editor for the base system.
> (Should be Extra if any other vi-a-like's are Optional or better.)

Why? They have different feature sets, and don't conflict.

> Package: floppybackup
> Description: Floppy backup using a diversity of floppy formats
> (Surely noone installing all of `Optional' could want to back up onto
> floppies ?)

If you've got a debian archive conveniently accessable, you wouldn't want to
back up any of /usr anyway. Only /etc and /home need backing up.

> Package: gnome-dev
> Description: Header files and development libraries for gnome

Why should this (or other -dev packages for optionsl libraries, for that
matter) be extra? They're needed to compile optional (at least) packages.

> Package: hello
> Description: The classic greeting, and a good example

It should be looked at by everyone who wants to be a developer. On the other
hand, that's the source, and I guess there's not really any reason at all to
install the binary apart from to try "hello sailor", which loses it's appeal
once you've tried it once :)

> Package: kernel-source-2.0.33
> Description: Linux kernel source.
> (et al.  Source code distributed as a .deb should not be installed
> unless the user knows they want it.)

Yes it should, because they should use it to build themselves a kernel.

> Package: lesstif-altdbg
> Description: Libc5 compatibility static LessTif library for debugging.
> 
> Package: lesstif-altdev
> Description: Libc5 compatibility LessTif development library and headers.

And all other *-alt{deb,dbg} too, I should think. For that matter, all of
the oldlibs directory apart from those that are needed by optional or higher
packages should be extra IMO.

> Package: libwmaker0
> Description: Shared libraries for WindowMaker aware applications.

We don't have any yet, as far as I know, but I'm sure there will be some
WindowMaker aware applications in debian sooner or later, and they will go
in optional, so this library should.

> Package: nas
> Description: The Network Audio System (NAS).
> (I _believe_ this thing still takes over /dev/audio et al if you
> install it, preventing other programs from working.)

Yes, I think that's true.

> Package: python-regrtest
> Description: Regression test for the python distribution.
>  Regression test for the python distribution. You only need to install
>  this if you don't trust the python packages.

Why does this exist at all? Shouldn't the regression tests be run in the
postinst?

> Package: wine
> Description: WINdows Emulator (Binary Emulator)

Presumably you say this should be extra because it's fairly alpha? In that
case, I agree.

> Package: xemacs19
> Description: XEmacs 19.16 editor and kitchen sink
> Conflicts: xemacs, xemacs-widget

Why? It doesn't conflict with anything. Or do you think we should only have
one emacs?

> Package: xemacs20-supportel
> Description: el library files for XEmacs 20.4.

Did you mean to list this and not xemacs20 itself?

Message #15 received at 19920@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Ian Jackson <ian@chiark.greenend.org.uk>

To: Mark Baker <mbaker@iee.org>

Cc: 19920@bugs.debian.org

Subject: Re: Bug#19920: Packages Optional, should be Extra

Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 22:12:18 +0000

Mark Baker writes ("Re: Bug#19920: Packages Optional, should be Extra"):
> On Wed, Mar 18, 1998 at 08:52:58PM +0000, Ian Jackson wrote:
> > hardware.  Perhaps some discussion needs to be had with the package
> > maintainers.
> 
> Yes, I think it does in many cases. So why file a bug on ftp.debian.org
> which Guy can't deal with himself?

To make sure it's not forgotten.

> > Package: exim
> > Description: Exim Mailer
> > Conflicts: mail-transport-agent
> > (But Smail is Important.)
> 
> We haven't decided whether to make exim standard (if we do, of course, smail
> should replace exim on your list)

I would support Exim being made Standard.  If there has been such a
consensus then you and the Smail maintainer need to tell Guy.

> > Package: display-dhammapada
> > Description: Displays verse from Dhammapada.
> > (Seems obscure to me ...)
> 
> Is obscurity a good reason?

Yes.  The definition of Extra includes packages that you don't want to
install if you don't know you want them.

> > Package: elvis-tiny
> > Description: Tiny vi compatible editor for the base system.
> > (Should be Extra if any other vi-a-like's are Optional or better.)
> 
> Why? They have different feature sets, and don't conflict.

There is no point installing elvis-tiny if you have normal vi.  The
Description says so.  A normal vi is in Standard.

> > Package: floppybackup
> > Description: Floppy backup using a diversity of floppy formats
> > (Surely noone installing all of `Optional' could want to back up onto
> > floppies ?)
> 
> If you've got a debian archive conveniently accessable, you wouldn't want to
> back up any of /usr anyway. Only /etc and /home need backing up.

Perhaps so.

...
> > Package: python-regrtest
> > Description: Regression test for the python distribution.
> >  Regression test for the python distribution. You only need to install
> >  this if you don't trust the python packages.
> 
> Why does this exist at all? Shouldn't the regression tests be run in the
> postinst?

At build time, not in the postinst.

> > Package: xemacs19
> > Description: XEmacs 19.16 editor and kitchen sink
> > Conflicts: xemacs, xemacs-widget
> 
> Why? It doesn't conflict with anything. Or do you think we should only have
> one emacs?

Conflicts: xemacs, xemacs-widget

> > Package: xemacs20-supportel
> > Description: el library files for XEmacs 20.4.
> 
> Did you mean to list this and not xemacs20 itself?

No.  You don't need the .el (as opposed to .elc) files unless you know
you want them.

Ian.

Message #20 received at 19920@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Manoj Srivastava <srivasta@datasync.com>

To: Ian Jackson <ian@chiark.greenend.org.uk>

Cc: 19920@bugs.debian.org, debian-policy@lists.debian.org

Subject: Re: Bug#19920: Packages Optional, should be Extra

Date: 18 Mar 1998 17:26:42 -0600

Hi,
	In the sprit of submitting bugs that affect a large number of
 packages, this should be 

  a) discussed on the mailing list, 
  b) have bugs filed against all packages so that peole may edit the
     control files.

	I definitely think this should not be acted on out of hand.

	Also, I think it is a bad idea to file bugs based on "An old
 version I tried was buggy, I have not seen the new versions, but let
 us act on the old buggy behaviour anyway.". Try Arena before you file
 a bug.

	manoj
>>"Ian" == Ian Jackson <ian@chiark.greenend.org.uk> writes:

Ian> Package: ftp.debian.org Version: 1998-03-18 18:48:52 +0000

Ian> It is my opinion that the following Optional packages should be
Ian> extra, because they are only useful to people with special
Ian> requirements or hardware.  Perhaps some discussion needs to be
Ian> had with the package maintainers.

Ian> Package: adbbs Description: ad! BBS. A perl based bbs or easy
Ian> menu system.

Ian> Package: apache-dev Description: Apache webserver development kit

Ian> Package: apcalc-dev Description: Library for arbitrary precision
Ian> arithmetic

Ian> Package: apple2 Description: Apple ][ Emulator (because it needs
Ian> the Apple ROMs which can only be legally used if you own a Mac.)

Ian> Package: arena Description: an HTML 3.0 compliant WWW browser for
Ian> X (because it is very buggy, at least last time I used it.
Ian> Perhaps it is better now)

Ian> Package: bash-builtins Description: Bash loadable builtins -
Ian> headers & examples

Ian> Package: amanda-client Description: Advanced Maryland Automatic
Ian> Network Disk Archiver (Client)

Ian> Package: amanda-server Description: Advanced Maryland Automatic
Ian> Network Disk Archiver (Server)

Ian> Package: browser-history Depends: libc6, xlib6g (>= 3.3-5)
Ian> (Appears just to support Netscape, but not clear.  Maybe it
Ian> should be in contrib)

Ian> Package: bulkmail Description: Speed up delivery of e-mail to
Ian> large numbers of recipients.

Ian> Package: camediaplay Description: Still Camera Digital Interface
Ian> (You need a camera.)

Ian> Package: cern-httpd Description: The CERN HTTP (World-Wide Web)
Ian> server (We should only install one webserver by `default' even in
Ian> a large system, and it should be apache.)

Ian> Package: boa Description: Lightweight and High Performance
Ian> WebServer (We should only install one webserver by `default' even
Ian> in a large system, and it should be apache.)

Ian> Package: dhttpd Description: Minimal secure webserver. No cgi-bin
Ian> support! (We should only install one webserver by `default' even
Ian> in a large system, and it should be apache.)

Ian> Package: ncsa Description: Small featureless NCSA Webserver (We
Ian> should only install one webserver by `default' even in a large
Ian> system, and it should be apache.)

Ian> Package: wn Description: Secure and efficient http server with
Ian> advanced features. (We should only install one webserver by
Ian> `default' even in a large system, and it should be apache.)

Ian> Package: exim Description: Exim Mailer Conflicts:
Ian> mail-transport-agent (But Smail is Important.)

Ian> Package: exim-doc Description: Exim MTA info documentation

Ian> Package: eximon Description: X-windows monitor for the exim mail
Ian> transport agent.

Ian> Package: cfingerd Description: Configurable and secure finger
Ian> daemon (This daemon is not so secure; its documentation claims
Ian> that syntax errors in the config file can cause coredumps and the
Ian> author seems unworried.  This is not suitable for use unless you
Ian> know what you're doing.)

Ian> Package: chimera2 Description: Web browser for X ... This is an
Ian> alpha-test version; some of the rendering routines are buggy.

Ian> Package: cti-ifhp Description: Printer filter for HP LaserJet
Ian> printers

Ian> Package: debmake Description: Debianizing Tool and automated
Ian> binary generation (We should be deprecating debmake.)

Ian> Package: devscripts Description: Scripts to make the life of a
Ian> Debian Package maintainer easier. (Christoph scripts.  Contains
Ian> namespace pollution, strange setuid binaries, &c.)

Ian> Package: dhcp Description: DHCP automatic IP address assignment
Ian> (This is a DHCP server, I think.  See my other bug report about
Ian> dhcp et al.)

Ian> Package: display-dhammapada Description: Displays verse from
Ian> Dhammapada. (Seems obscure to me ...)

Ian> Package: djtools Description: Tools for HP DeskJet printer.

Ian> Package: echo-linux Description: French on-line magazine "L'Echo
Ian> de Linux"

Ian> Package: elisp-manual Description: Emacs Lisp Reference Manual

Ian> Package: elvis-tiny Description: Tiny vi compatible editor for
Ian> the base system. (Should be Extra if any other vi-a-like's are
Ian> Optional or better.)

Ian> Package: emacs-el Description: GNU Emacs LISP (.el) files.

Ian> Package: emacs-lisp-intro Description: Programming in Emacs Lisp:
Ian> An Introduction

Ian> Package: emacspeak Description: speech output interface to Emacs

Ian> Package: expect5.24-dev Description: Development files for the
Ian> expect5.24 package.

Ian> Package: floppybackup Description: Floppy backup using a
Ian> diversity of floppy formats (Surely noone installing all of
Ian> `Optional' could want to back up onto floppies ?)

Ian> Package: frad Description: Frame Relay Tools for DLCI/SDLA
Ian> Drivers in 2.0/2.1 kernels.

Ian> Package: freetype1-dev Description: FreeType development files
Ian> (static library and headers).

Ian> Package: gap Description: gap is a system for computational
Ian> discrete algebra. installed-size: 24180

Ian> Package: gdkimlib-dev Description: Library that allows to display
Ian> images within gdk/gtk

Ian> Package: gdkimlib0 Description: Library that allows to display
Ian> images within gdk/gtk (That's all of the descriptions, so I'm
Ian> guessing)

Ian> Package: gltt-bin Description: sample programs using gltt (gltt
Ian> is apparently `library to read and draw TrueType fonts in OpenGL
Ian> programs' and should be Optional because something depends on
Ian> it.)

Ian> Package: gltt1-dev Description: development kit for gltt

Ian> Package: glut-doc Description: Example programs and support
Ian> documentation for GLUT. (glut is apparently `The OpenGL Utility
Ian> Toolkit' and should be Optional because something depends on it.)

Ian> Package: glut-data Description: Data files for use with some of
Ian> the examples in glut-doc

Ian> Package: glutg3-dev Description: Development library for GLUT.

Ian> Package: gnome-dev Description: Header files and development
Ian> libraries for gnome

Ian> Package: gstep-base-dbg Description: GNUstep Base static
Ian> libraries. installed-size: 5561

Ian> Package: hello Description: The classic greeting, and a good
Ian> example

Ian> Package: hypermail Description: Create HTML archives of mailing
Ian> lists (Most people don't run mailing lists.)

Ian> Package: icmake Description: Intelligent C-like MAKEr, or the
Ian> ICce MAKE utility

Ian> Package: inn-dev Description: The libinn.a library and manpages.

Ian> Package: innfeed Description: This is the new INN feeder program
Ian> `innfeed.' (You'll know it if you want this.)

Ian> Package: intercal Description: ick - Compiler for the Intercal
Ian> language

Ian> Package: iplogger Description: TCP and ICMP event logger (Uses
Ian> packet tracing - should not be turned on unless the user knows
Ian> about it.)

Ian> Package: jail Description: Just Another ICMP Logger (I haven't
Ian> checked, but I think this uses packet tracing too.)

Ian> Package: journal-dev Description: Scripts to help building an
Ian> on-line magazine

Ian> Package: kernel-source-2.0.33 Description: Linux kernel
Ian> source. (et al.  Source code distributed as a .deb should not be
Ian> installed unless the user knows they want it.)

Ian> Package: lambdacore Description: core database for lambdamoo
Ian> (Most people do not want to run a mud locally.)

Ian> Package: lambdamoo Description: a server for an online multiuser
Ian> virtual world

Ian> Package: lambdamoo-docs Description: LambdaMOO user and
Ian> programmer manuals

Ian> Package: jhcore Description: Jay's House Core, an enhanced core
Ian> database for lambdamoo

Ian> Package: pj-base Description: PLUTO JOURNAL: Italian OnLine
Ian> Magazine

Ian> Package: pj97n08 Description: Issue 8 (January) of PLUTO JOURNAL
Ian> 1997 (in Italian).

Ian> Package: lesstif-altdbg Description: Libc5 compatibility static
Ian> LessTif library for debugging.

Ian> Package: lesstif-altdev Description: Libc5 compatibility LessTif
Ian> development library and headers.

Ian> Package: lesstifg-dbg Description: Static library with debugging
Ian> symbols for LessTif.

Ian> Package: lg-base Description: Shared files for the Linux Gazette.

Ian> Package: lg-issue01to08 Description: Issues 1 to 8 of the Linux
Ian> Gazette.

Ian> Package: lg-issue09 Description: Issue 9 of the Linux
Ian> Gazette. (et al)

Ian> Package: libc5-altdbg Description: The Linux C library version 5
Ian> (alternative debug files).

Ian> Package: libc5-altdev Description: The Linux C library version 5
Ian> (alternative dev files).

Ian> Package: libc6-pic Description: The GNU C library version 2 (PIC
Ian> library) installed-size: 7308

Ian> Package: boot-floppies Description: Scripts to create the Debian
Ian> installation floppy set. Depends: libc6-pic, slang0.99.38-pic,
Ian> mkrboot, dosfstools (>=1.0-9.1), syslinux (>= 1.30), sysutils,
Ian> makedev (>=1.6-15), newt0.21, newt0.21-dev, popt

Ian> Package: libcanna1g-dev Description: Canna Static Library and
Ian> Headers (Libc6). Canna is a Japanese input system available in
Ian> Free Software. This package includes header and static libraries.

Ian> Package: libcompface1-altdev Description: Compress/decompress
Ian> images for mailheaders, libc5 devel

Ian> Package: libdl1-altdev Description: The Linux dynamic linker
Ian> library (alternative dev files).

Ian> Package: libdnd1-dev Description: OffiX drag and drop protocol
Ian> (development files).

Ian> Package: libelfg0-dev Description: an ELF object file access
Ian> library: development files

Ian> Package: libgdbm1-altdev Description: GNU dbm database routines
Ian> (development files) [libc5 compat]

Ian> Package: libgpm1-altdev Description: General Purpose Mouse
Ian> Library, development files [libc5]

Ian> Package: libgpmg1-dev Description: General Purpose Mouse Library,
Ian> development files [libc6]

Ian> Package: libgsm-bin Description: User binaries for a GSM speech
Ian> compressor.

Ian> Package: libgsm1 Description: Shared libraries for GSM speech
Ian> compressor.

Ian> Package: libgsm1-dev Description: Development libraries for a GSM
Ian> speech compressor.

Ian> Package: libjpeg-altdev Description: Development files for the
Ian> IJG jpeg library [libc5]

Ian> Package: liblzo-dev Description: Development support files for
Ian> the lzo library.

Ian> Package: libnatali-dev Description: An AppleTalk Library
Ian> Interface compatibility library for Netatalk

Ian> Package: libpam0-altdev Description: Header files for libpam
Ian> [libc5]

Ian> Package: libpam0-altutil Description: Authentication modules and
Ian> system binaries for libpam [libc5]

Ian> Package: libpam0g-dbg Description: Static library with debugging
Ian> symbols for libpam [libc6]

Ian> Package: libpam0g-dev Description: Header files for libpam
Ian> [libc6]

Ian> Package: libpcap-dev Description: Development library for
Ian> libpcap.

Ian> Package: libpng0-altdev Description: PNG library - libc5
Ian> development compatibility package

Ian> Package: libproplist0-dev Description: C headers, static
Ian> libraries and documentation for libPropList

Ian> Package: libpwdb-doc Description: Documentation for libpwdb

Ian> Package: libpwdb0-altdev Description: Header files for libpwdb
Ian> [libc5]

Ian> Package: libpwdb0g-dbg Description: Static library with debugging
Ian> symbols for libpwdb [libc6]

Ian> Package: libpwdb0g-dev Description: Header files for libpwdb
Ian> [libc6]

Ian> Package: libreadline2-altdev Description: GNU readline and
Ian> history libraries, development files. [libc5]

Ian> Package: libreadlineg2-dbg Description: GNU readline and history
Ian> libraries, debugging libraries. [libc6]

Ian> Package: librx1-altdev Description: Development library for
Ian> rx. [libc5]

Ian> Package: librx1g-dbg Description: Debugging library for
Ian> rx. [libc6]

Ian> Package: libtclobjc-dev Description: Development library for
Ian> libtclobjc.

Ian> Package: libtiff3-altdev Description: tiff development files
Ian> [libc5]

Ian> Package: libwine-dev Description: WINdows Emulator (Development
Ian> Files)

Ian> Package: libwine0.0.971116 Description: WINdows Emulator
Ian> (Library)

Ian> Package: libwmaker0 Description: Shared libraries for WindowMaker
Ian> aware applications.

Ian> Package: libwmaker0-dev Description: Static libraries and headers
Ian> for WindowMaker applications.

Ian> Package: libwraster0 Description: Shared libraries of WindowMaker
Ian> rasterizer.

Ian> Package: libwraster0-dev Description: Static libraries and
Ian> headers of WindowMaker rasterizer.

Ian> Package: mandelspawn Description: a distributed processing
Ian> Mandelbrot program for X (You need many computers.)

Ian> Package: mhonarc Description: Mail to HTML converter (Another
Ian> list archiver.)

Ian> Package: mingetty Description: Console-only getty. (We already
Ian> have a getty.)

Ian> Package: mkhybrid Description: CD-ROM authoring tool.  Creates
Ian> CD-ROM filesystem images (You need a CD writer.)

Ian> Package: mkrboot Description: Make a kernel + rootimage bootable
Ian> from one disk or from DOS

Ian> Package: mpich Description: Parallel computing system

Ian> Package: mserver Description: Network Modem Server

Ian> Package: mtx Description: controls tape autochangers

Ian> Package: nas Description: The Network Audio System (NAS). (I
Ian> _believe_ this thing still takes over /dev/audio et al if you
Ian> install it, preventing other programs from working.)

Ian> Package: ncurses3.0-altdev Description: Old libc5 curses -
Ian> Developer's libraries

Ian> Package: ncurses3.4-dbg Description: Video terminal manipulation
Ian> - Debugging/profiling libraries.

Ian> Package: netcdf-altdev Description: Development kit for
Ian> NetCDF. (libc5 version)

Ian> Package: mh Description: A set of electronic mail handling
Ian> programs. (`nmh' is new MH and conflicts with mh.)

Ian> Package: objpak-dev Description: Developers kit for objpak.

Ian> Package: octave-staticlibs Description: Static libraries for the
Ian> GNU Octave language

Ian> Package: perl-debug Description: View internals of Perl and debug
Ian> Perl itself. ... You probably don't need this.  perl -dead will
Ian> bring up the Perl source debugger and tell you much of what you
Ian> want to know.  See perldebug(1).

Ian> Package: pptp-linux Description: PPTP Microsoft Compatible
Ian> Tunneling Protocol

Ian> Package: proftpd Description: Versatile, virtual-hosting FTP
Ian> daemon Conflicts: wu-ftpd (But wu-ftpd is Optional)

Ian> Package: python-regrtest Description: Regression test for the
Ian> python distribution. Regression test for the python
Ian> distribution. You only need to install this if you don't trust
Ian> the python packages.

Ian> Package: python-gdbm Description: GDBM database support for
Ian> Python (obsolete). GDBM database support module for Python. The
Ian> gdbm module is obsoleted by anydb. (And it looks like anydb is
Ian> part of python-misc.)

Ian> Package: python-stdwin Description: Stdwin support for Python
Ian> (obsolete). Platform-independent user interface toolkit for
Ian> Python. Stdwin is now obsolete and will be removed from the
Ian> Python distribution.

Ian> Package: radiusd-livingston Description: Remote Authentication
Ian> Dial-In User Service (RADIUS) server (You need a modem bank to
Ian> run this !)

Ian> Package: regex0-altdev Description: GNU regular expression
Ian> library, development files. [libc5]

Ian> Package: regex0g-dbg Description: GNU regular expression library,
Ian> debugging libraries. [libc6]

Ian> Package: regina-dev Description: The Regina REXX interpreter,
Ian> development files.

Ian> Package: sane Description: API for scanners

Ian> Package: slang0.99.34-dev Description: S-Lang libc5 backward
Ian> compatibility development kit (We also have slang0.99.38-dev)

Ian> Package: smartlist Description: Versatile and Intelligent List
Ian> Processor

Ian> Package: squid-novm Description: Internet Object Cache (WWW proxy
Ian> cache) NOVM version Conflicts: squid

Ian> Package: svgalib1-altdev Description: Shared, non-x, graphics
Ian> library used by Ghostscript et al.

Ian> Package: tcl76-altdev Description: The Tool Command Language
Ian> (TCL) v7.6 - libc5 Development Package.

Ian> Package: tclx76-dev Description: Extended Tcl (TclX) version 7.6
Ian> -- development package

Ian> Package: tk42-altdev Description: The Tk toolkit for TCL and X11
Ian> v4.2 - libc5 Development Package.

Ian> Package: v-altdev Description: V - a C++ GUI Framework
Ian> (development files for libc5).

Ian> Package: v-dbg Description: V - a C++ GUI Framework (library
Ian> debugging files).

Ian> Package: vm-el Description: A mail user agent for Emacs
Ian> (uncompiled elsip source files)

Ian> Package: win32binutils Description: The GNU assembler, linker and
Ian> binary utilities (Win32 version).

Ian> Package: win32gcc Description: The GNU C compiler (Win32
Ian> version).

Ian> Package: win32libs Description: POSIX emulation libraries for the
Ian> Win32 API.

Ian> Package: wine Description: WINdows Emulator (Binary Emulator)

Ian> Package: wine-doc Description: WINdows Emulator (Documentation)

Ian> Package: wmaker-superfluous Description: WindowMaker compiled
Ian> with superfluous options ... The WindowMaker author thinks this
Ian> is "useless stuff that bloats and slows down WindowMaker"

Ian> Package: wmf Description: Web Mail Folder

Ian> Package: wu-ftpd-academ Description: A powerful replacement for
Ian> the standard ftpd Conflicts: wu-ftpd Provides: wu-ftpd

Ian> Package: x10 Description: Operate X-10 electrical power control
Ian> modules.

Ian> Package: x10-automate Description: GUI interface for x10 power
Ian> line control utility

Ian> Package: x48 Description: Emulator of Hewlett-Packards HP48
Ian> calculator ...You need an original HP48 calculator to dump its
Ian> ROM.

Ian> Package: xcdroast Description: X based CD-writer software

Ian> Package: xemacs19-supportel Description: el library files for
Ian> XEmacs 19.16.

Ian> Package: xemacs19 Description: XEmacs 19.16 editor and kitchen
Ian> sink Conflicts: xemacs, xemacs-widget

Ian> Package: xemacs19-support Description: Support and architecture
Ian> independant files for XEmacs 19.16.

Ian> Package: xemacs20-supportel Description: el library files for
Ian> XEmacs 20.4.

Ian> Package: xlib6-altdev Description: Include files and libraries
Ian> for libc5 X client development

Ian> Package: xpm4-altdev Description: X Pixmap libraries (for libc5)
Ian> - development

Ian> Package: xslib Description: Statically linked versions of the
Ian> libraries in xlib You only need to install this package if you
Ian> intend to compile statically linked X clients against libc5.

Ian> Package: xview-altdev Description: XView development tools
Ian> [libc5]

Ian> Package: zlib1-altdev Description: compression library -
Ian> development (for libc5)

Ian> -- Ian Jackson, at home.  Local/personal:
Ian> ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk ian@chiark.greenend.org.uk
Ian> http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~ijackson/


Ian> -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to
Ian> debian-bugs-dist-request@lists.debian.org with a subject of
Ian> "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org




-- 
 Democracy is that form of government where everybody gets what the
 majority deserves.  -- James Dale Davidson
Manoj Srivastava  <srivasta@acm.org> <http://www.datasync.com/%7Esrivasta/>
Key C7261095 fingerprint = CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05  CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E

Message #25 received at 19920@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: James LewisMoss <dres@dimensional.com>

To: Ian Jackson <ian@chiark.greenend.org.uk>, 19920@bugs.debian.org

Subject: Re: Bug#19920: Packages Optional, should be Extra

Date: 18 Mar 1998 16:59:18 -0700

>>>>> On Wed, 18 Mar 1998 20:52:58 +0000, Ian Jackson <ian@chiark.greenend.org.uk> said:

 Ian> Package: ftp.debian.org Version: 1998-03-18 18:48:52 +0000

 Ian> It is my opinion that the following Optional packages should be
 Ian> extra, because they are only useful to people with special
 Ian> requirements or hardware.  Perhaps some discussion needs to be
 Ian> had with the package maintainers.

I started to reply to all of these, but figured I'd just stop and make 
a few comments.

1) all the -altdevs already have a special place 'oldlibs' why move
   them?

2) all devs (not including just the ones listed here) are for
   specialized uses (programmers) clipping the ones here doesn't make
   sense unless you think all should and that's kind absurd.

3) there were a few that made sense (the x10, sane, the digital
   camera one (can't remember name) and apple).

4) you objected to several non-english online magazines it seems just
   because they were non-english.  Debian is supposedly moving/moved
   towards a more international audience.  If you think all frivolous
   documentation like this should be moved then say so, but don't pick 
   just the non-english ones.

4) you objected to packages that contained extra information
   (xemacs19-supportel, xemacs20-supportel, and vm-el just to name a
   few) just because many people wouldn't want to install them.
   That's what the description is for.  Not the classification of the
   package.  None of the three I mention here are dangerous or are
   particularly specialized (they run on all computers (cept ones with 
   too little memory of course :)).

5) You had problems with several possibly buggy packages.  If they are 
   buggy then they should be moved out of main.  Not dropped in extra.

6) Your 'apache should be it' grouping is your opinion.  I happen to
   agree, but others don't.  Dropping the rest in extra because you
   don't like them is not the way to go.

I believe that covers most of them.  As far as I understand it extra
is not for not-often used packages, but for possibly dangerous
packages (that aren't buggy, but that change the distribution in odd
ways) and those that have specialized uses (like grabbing frames from
digital cameras NOT developing GL programs).

I also have a problem with your last sentence above where you feel it
is assumed that you are correct in this and the movement of these
packages is a foregone conclusion.

Just my opinions of course. :)

Dres

PS: (And this has nothing to do with xemacs packages being included in 
your list.  I didn't notice they were there until after I started to
reply.) 

-- 
@James LewisMoss <dres@dimensional.com> |  Blessed Be!
@    http://www.dimensional.com/~dres   |  Linux is cool!
@"Argue for your limitations and sure enough, they're yours." Bach

Message #30 received at 19920@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: James LewisMoss <dres@dimensional.com>

To: Ian Jackson <ian@chiark.greenend.org.uk>, 19920@bugs.debian.org

Subject: Re: Bug#19920: Packages Optional, should be Extra

Date: 18 Mar 1998 17:46:42 -0700

>>>>> On Wed, 18 Mar 1998 22:12:18 +0000, Ian Jackson <ian@chiark.greenend.org.uk> said:

 Ian> At build time, not in the postinst.

 >> > Package: xemacs19 Description: XEmacs 19.16 editor and kitchen
 >> > sink Conflicts: xemacs, xemacs-widget
 >>
 >> Why? It doesn't conflict with anything. Or do you think we should
 >> only have one emacs?

 Ian> Conflicts: xemacs, xemacs-widget

So do the xemacs20 packages.  xemacs and xemacs-widget are bo only
packages.  Replaced by xemacs20 packages and xemacs19 packages in hamm 
(depending on your preferences). 

Dres
-- 
@James LewisMoss <dres@dimensional.com> |  Blessed Be!
@    http://www.dimensional.com/~dres   |  Linux is cool!
@"Argue for your limitations and sure enough, they're yours." Bach

Message #35 received at 19920@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Joey Hess <joey@kitenet.net>

To: Ian Jackson <ian@chiark.greenend.org.uk>, 19920@bugs.debian.org

Subject: Re: Bug#19920: Packages Optional, should be Extra

Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 17:38:17 -0800

Ian Jackson wrote:
> It is my opinion that the following Optional packages should be extra,
> because they are only useful to people with special requirements or
> hardware.  Perhaps some discussion needs to be had with the package
> maintainers.

> Package: display-dhammapada
> Description: Displays verse from Dhammapada.
> (Seems obscure to me ...)

I doubt it seems obscure to buddhists, though.

Unless you're arguing that the "special requirement" needed to use this
package is that you be religious ;-), it doesn't belong in extra. If you are
arguing that, then the "verse" and "bible-kjv" packages belong in extra as
well.

> Package: intercal
> Description: ick - Compiler for the Intercal language

I don't see why this belongs in extra, and a compiler for icon (iconc) does
not. Yes, intercal is an obscure, joke language. But I've seen more
references to it than I have to icon.

> Package: lambdacore
> Description: core database for lambdamoo
> (Most people do not want to run a mud locally.)

Most people do not want to run a large news server, or a proxy cache locally,
either. Should inn and squid be in extra?

> Package: proftpd
> Description: Versatile, virtual-hosting FTP daemon
> Conflicts: wu-ftpd
> (But wu-ftpd is Optional)

So? It seems opinion on wu-ftpd and proftpd is split about 50-50 at present.
Wu-ftpd has a larger installed base, but proftpd is gaining fast. Seems to
me they should both go in optional.

-- 
see shy jo

Message #40 received at 19920@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Mark Baker <mbaker@iee.org>

To: James LewisMoss <dres@dimensional.com>, 19920@bugs.debian.org

Subject: Re: Bug#19920: Packages Optional, should be Extra

Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 10:34:54 +0000

On Wed, Mar 18, 1998 at 04:59:18PM -0700, James LewisMoss wrote:

> 1) all the -altdevs already have a special place 'oldlibs' why move
>    them?

They shouldn't be moved, they should have their priority lowered as well.

> 2) all devs (not including just the ones listed here) are for
>    specialized uses (programmers) clipping the ones here doesn't make
>    sense unless you think all should and that's kind absurd.

I agree

> 4) you objected to several non-english online magazines it seems just
>    because they were non-english.  Debian is supposedly moving/moved
>    towards a more international audience.  If you think all frivolous
>    documentation like this should be moved then say so, but don't pick 
>    just the non-english ones.

Actually Ian included English-language ones too (lj-*)

> 5) You had problems with several possibly buggy packages.  If they are 
>    buggy then they should be moved out of main.  Not dropped in extra.

If the bugs are sufficient to make the package unusable, then yes, I agree.
Chimera2 has bugs that make it badly mess up the rendering of many pages,
however for probably the majority of pages out there it is fine, and is one
of the fastest graphical browsers I know and a program I use every day.

Message #45 received at 19920@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Marcus Brinkmann <Marcus.Brinkmann@ruhr-uni-bochum.de>

To: Manoj Srivastava <srivasta@datasync.com>, Ian Jackson <ian@chiark.greenend.org.uk>

Cc: 19920@bugs.debian.org, debian-policy@lists.debian.org

Subject: Re: Bug#19920: Packages Optional, should be Extra

Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 17:10:52 +0100

On Wed, Mar 18, 1998 at 05:26:42PM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
> Hi,
> 	In the sprit of submitting bugs that affect a large number of
>  packages, this should be 
> 
>   a) discussed on the mailing list, 
>   b) have bugs filed against all packages so that peole may edit the
>      control files.
> 
> 	I definitely think this should not be acted on out of hand.
> 
> 	Also, I think it is a bad idea to file bugs based on "An old
>  version I tried was buggy, I have not seen the new versions, but let
>  us act on the old buggy behaviour anyway.". Try Arena before you file
>  a bug.

I agree strongly. I have looked at the first half of the long list, and I
feel that Ian has decided on a *very* subjective rational, and I will comment
on some of them below in detail.

I gave up half way through. I see three categories:

1) packages that require additional hardware or conflict with the rest of
the system. Those have to go to extra. This is the current interpretation of
extra in the policy.

2) packages that may not be attractive for "most people" whatever most
people may be like. See below.

3) packages that are old, outdated (online magazines) or buggy.
   Those packages should either be fixed or removed from the distribution.
   All packages have to conform the high standard of quality. Extra is no
   section for trash.

I appreciate Ian's afford to clean out "optional", but this requires more
than putting random packages to "extra". Packages that fall under the scope
of 1) above should be moved to extra ASAP. But packages that are not "for
many people" should still be in optional until a better solution is found.
Here are two possible solutions:

a) Wait for de*ty's capability to make predefined bunches of package
selection, so it is easier for users to install "just a mailer".

b) Make an additional section either between standard and optional or
between optional and extra. (Suggestion: "preferred" or "extra", where old
extra will be renamed to "special" or so).

I don't want to decide which package should be optional and which should
belong to the other category. I would prefer to leave it as it is.

> Ian> It is my opinion that the following Optional packages should be
> Ian> extra, because they are only useful to people with special
> Ian> requirements or hardware.  Perhaps some discussion needs to be
> Ian> had with the package maintainers.

> Ian> Package: arena Description: an HTML 3.0 compliant WWW browser for
> Ian> X (because it is very buggy, at least last time I used it.
> Ian> Perhaps it is better now)

As Manoj already said, this is no rationale to move it to extra. Bugs are
there to be fixed.

> Ian> Package: bash-builtins Description: Bash loadable builtins -
> Ian> headers & examples

What are the special requirements here?

> Ian> Package: bulkmail Description: Speed up delivery of e-mail to
> Ian> large numbers of recipients.

I agree that you need a special attitude to use this effectively ?!
 
> Ian> Package: cern-httpd Description: The CERN HTTP (World-Wide Web)
> Ian> server (We should only install one webserver by `default' even in
> Ian> a large system, and it should be apache.)
> 
> Ian> Package: boa Description: Lightweight and High Performance
> Ian> WebServer (We should only install one webserver by `default' even
> Ian> in a large system, and it should be apache.)
> 
> Ian> Package: dhttpd Description: Minimal secure webserver. No cgi-bin
> Ian> support! (We should only install one webserver by `default' even
> Ian> in a large system, and it should be apache.)
> 
> Ian> Package: ncsa Description: Small featureless NCSA Webserver (We
> Ian> should only install one webserver by `default' even in a large
> Ian> system, and it should be apache.)
> 
> Ian> Package: wn Description: Secure and efficient http server with
> Ian> advanced features. (We should only install one webserver by
> Ian> `default' even in a large system, and it should be apache.)

I think it may make sense to be able to install several webservers (on other
ports, for example). We should work on this, so they can be installed
and configured concurrently. Otherwise you also have to move other MTA's
also, but...

> Ian> Package: exim Description: Exim Mailer Conflicts:
> Ian> mail-transport-agent (But Smail is Important.)
>
> Ian> Package: exim-doc Description: Exim MTA info documentation
>
> Ian> Package: eximon Description: X-windows monitor for the exim mail
> Ian> transport agent.

As probably exim will make it to be Debian standard mailer, this is a
strange decision. I don't know why exim conflicts and the other mta's do
not, but certainly the better solution is either to make smail optional or
to replace smail by exim ;)
 
> Ian> Package: cfingerd Description: Configurable and secure finger
> Ian> daemon (This daemon is not so secure; its documentation claims
> Ian> that syntax errors in the config file can cause coredumps and the
> Ian> author seems unworried.  This is not suitable for use unless you
> Ian> know what you're doing.)

(*)
Then this should be fixed. Are bugs a reason to downgrade the section? *All*
packages in the Debian main distribution must compare to the same standard
of quality. If cfingerd is broken, it has to be fixed or removed from the
distribution.
 
> Ian> Package: chimera2 Description: Web browser for X ... This is an
> Ian> alpha-test version; some of the rendering routines are buggy.

see above (*).
 
> Ian> Package: debmake Description: Debianizing Tool and automated
> Ian> binary generation (We should be deprecating debmake.)

Mmmmh. Also I don't like debmake as most of us, I feel a bit uneasy by this.
Probably it is better to remove it ;)
  
> Ian> Package: devscripts Description: Scripts to make the life of a
> Ian> Debian Package maintainer easier. (Christoph scripts.  Contains
> Ian> namespace pollution, strange setuid binaries, &c.)

I found "build" very useful. Maybe build shoulb be in dpkg-dev, under a
different name? Then the package could be removed, IMHO.

> Ian> Package: display-dhammapada Description: Displays verse from
> Ian> Dhammapada. (Seems obscure to me ...)

Then please move the bible* packages, too. I find your rational funny, too.

> Ian> Package: echo-linux Description: French on-line magazine "L'Echo
> Ian> de Linux"

If the information is outdated, the package should probably be removed at
all... but who wants to read it and check it?
 
> Ian> Package: elisp-manual Description: Emacs Lisp Reference Manual
>
> Ian> Package: emacs-lisp-intro Description: Programming in Emacs Lisp:
> Ian> An Introduction

Could you please give a rationale for this? Beside a certain amount of
intellectual capabilities, there are no special hardware you need to read
and understand a manual. I don't think learning of a new language should be
depreciated. Instead, I wish we had manuals and tutorials for all languages!

> Ian> Package: gap Description: gap is a system for computational
> Ian> discrete algebra. installed-size: 24180

Why should this be extra? 

> Ian> Package: gdkimlib-dev Description: Library that allows to display
> Ian> images within gdk/gtk
> 
> Ian> Package: gdkimlib0 Description: Library that allows to display
> Ian> images within gdk/gtk (That's all of the descriptions, so I'm
> Ian> guessing)

Someone already sdaid something about them. They belong to the Gtk project
and shoud be in optional.

> Ian> Package: gltt-bin Description: sample programs using gltt (gltt
> Ian> is apparently `library to read and draw TrueType fonts in OpenGL
> Ian> programs' and should be Optional because something depends on
> Ian> it.)

I don't understand what you mean with "something depends on it").
 
> Ian> Package: hypermail Description: Create HTML archives of mailing
> Ian> lists (Most people don't run mailing lists.)

Most people don't use package <X> is actually no reason to put <X> in extra.
This is not my current understanding of extra, as I read it in the policy
manual.

> Ian> Package: journal-dev Description: Scripts to help building an
> Ian> on-line magazine
> 
> Ian> Package: kernel-source-2.0.33 Description: Linux kernel
> Ian> source. (et al.  Source code distributed as a .deb should not be
> Ian> installed unless the user knows they want it.)

This is a joke, isn't it? I would agree with other source packages, but the
kernel? I think it is essential for every Linux system to recompile the
kernel occasionally. The default kernel is too slow at startup.

> Ian> Package: libwine-dev Description: WINdows Emulator (Development
> Ian> Files)

see below, at wine.
 
> Ian> Package: libwine0.0.971116 Description: WINdows Emulator
> Ian> (Library)
> 
> Ian> Package: libwmaker0 Description: Shared libraries for WindowMaker
> Ian> aware applications.
> 
> Ian> Package: libwmaker0-dev Description: Static libraries and headers
> Ian> for WindowMaker applications.
> 
> Ian> Package: libwraster0 Description: Shared libraries of WindowMaker
> Ian> rasterizer.
> 
> Ian> Package: libwraster0-dev Description: Static libraries and
> Ian> headers of WindowMaker rasterizer.
> 
> Ian> Package: mandelspawn Description: a distributed processing
> Ian> Mandelbrot program for X (You need many computers.)

I think this can alo work on a single computer. Did you check this? Maybe
even over internet.
 
> Ian> Package: mhonarc Description: Mail to HTML converter (Another
> Ian> list archiver.)

I don't think that list archiver should be in extra.
 
> Ian> Package: nas Description: The Network Audio System (NAS). (I
> Ian> _believe_ this thing still takes over /dev/audio et al if you
> Ian> install it, preventing other programs from working.)

Other programs *should* use it. It takes over /dev/audio when it runs,
because it is a server. Because most programs that use sound have their own
small server, only one sound program can run at once. With the rational you
gave, *all* packages that have sound should be extra, because they are
preventing each other. NAS is providing a solution for this problem if you
build the programs to use it (but then you get other problems, as NAS is
slower than direct access).
 
> Ian> Package: wine Description: WINdows Emulator (Binary Emulator)
> 
> Ian> Package: wine-doc Description: WINdows Emulator (Documentation)

I don't think that emulators should be extra, just because you need software
for other platforms to use them. Hmmm.
 

-- 
"Rhubarb is no Egyptian god."        Debian GNU/Linux        finger brinkmd@ 
Marcus Brinkmann                   http://www.debian.org    master.debian.org
Marcus.Brinkmann@ruhr-uni-bochum.de                        for public  PGP Key
http://homepage.ruhr-uni-bochum.de/Marcus.Brinkmann/       PGP Key ID 36E7CD09

Message #50 received at 19920@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: "Marcelo E. Magallon" <mmagallo@efis.ucr.ac.cr>

To: 19920@bugs.debian.org

Cc: Debian developers list <debian-devel@lists.debian.org>

Subject: Re: Packages which should be Extra

Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 10:53:52 -0600 (CST)

On Wed, 18 Mar 1998, Ian Jackson wrote:

> libwmaker0 libwmaker0-dev libwraster0 libwraster0-dev

> wmaker-superfluous

Ok. My fault. The description is not that good. The name isn't
either. But that's what the upstream author uses. Anyway, if you
put wmaker-superfluous as extra, then put wmaker-traditional
there, too.

Also, wmaker (which you left in optional) depends on libwraster0.
Leave libwraster0 as optional then.


			Marcelo.

Message #55 received at 19920@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Marcus Brinkmann <Marcus.Brinkmann@ruhr-uni-bochum.de>

To: Mark Baker <mbaker@iee.org>, 19920@bugs.debian.org, James LewisMoss <dres@dimensional.com>

Subject: Re: Bug#19920: Packages Optional, should be Extra

Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 19:13:26 +0100

On Thu, Mar 19, 1998 at 10:34:54AM +0000, Mark Baker wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 18, 1998 at 04:59:18PM -0700, James LewisMoss wrote:
> 
> > 4) you objected to several non-english online magazines it seems just
> >    because they were non-english.  Debian is supposedly moving/moved
> >    towards a more international audience.  If you think all frivolous
> >    documentation like this should be moved then say so, but don't pick 
> >    just the non-english ones.
> 
> Actually Ian included English-language ones too (lj-*)

I try a wild guess, and think that his reason was the date. All magazines he
pointed out are over a year old. He mentioned the lj 1-8, but not the recent
ones.

Marcus

-- 
"Rhubarb is no Egyptian god."        Debian GNU/Linux        finger brinkmd@ 
Marcus Brinkmann                   http://www.debian.org    master.debian.org
Marcus.Brinkmann@ruhr-uni-bochum.de                        for public  PGP Key
http://homepage.ruhr-uni-bochum.de/Marcus.Brinkmann/       PGP Key ID 36E7CD09

Message #62 received at 19920-done@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Joerg Jaspert <joerg@ganneff.de>

To: 19920-done@bugs.debian.org

Subject: close

Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2007 13:23:56 +0100

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

Hi

I'm closing this bug now, as its fairly old and a lot of packages
mentioned here either dont exist anymore, changed priorities or possibly
dont need to change them.

If you disagree - please file a bug on the individual packages and ask
them to change their priority. If you do so and want one tracking bug
for those feel free to either reopen this bug or file a new one, setting
proper block: on the other bugs.

Thanks.

-- 
bye Joerg
<Zugschlus> Sven Luther hat doch eine schwere Wahrnehmungsstörung, oder?
<Zugschlus> der Mann ist ja schlimmer als ich

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