Debian Bug report logs - #156503
microsoft changed its policy, msttcorefonts broken

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Message #5 received at submit@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: "Martin Sarsale" <martin@n3rds.com.ar>

To: "Debian Bug Tracking System" <submit@bugs.debian.org>

Subject: microsoft changed its policy, msttcorefonts broken

Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 22:01:16 -0300

Package: general
Version: N/A; reported 2002-08-12
Severity: grave
Tags: upstream
Justification: renders package unusable

Since micro$oft stopped giving their true type fonts for free (http://www.microsoft.com/typography/fontpack/default.htm), msttcorefonts is unusable :(
 

-- System Information:
Debian Release: testing/unstable
Architecture: i386
Kernel: Linux filomena 2.4.17-686 #2 Sat Dec 22 21:58:49 EST 2001 i686
Locale: LANG=C, LC_CTYPE=C

-- no debconf information

Message #10 received at 156503@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Junichi Uekawa <dancer@netfort.gr.jp>

To: "Martin Sarsale" <martin@n3rds.com.ar>, 156503@bugs.debian.org

Cc: control@bugs.debian.org

Subject: Re: Bug#156503: microsoft changed its policy, msttcorefonts broken

Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 16:36:11 +0900

reassign 156503 msttcorefonts
thanks

> Since micro$oft stopped giving their true type fonts for free (http://www.microsoft.com/typography/fontpack/default.htm), msttcorefonts is unusable :(
>  

reassigning this bug to the appropriate package

-- 
dancer@debian.org  http://www.netfort.gr.jp/~dancer

Message #15 received at 156503-quiet@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Simon Law <sfllaw@engmail.uwaterloo.ca>

To: debian-user@lists.debian.org

Cc: 156503-quiet@bugs.debian.org

Subject: Re: msttcorefonts download error

Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 05:58:36 -0400

On Tue, Aug 13, 2002 at 10:28:15AM +0100, Colin Watson wrote:
> On Tue, Aug 13, 2002 at 11:26:34AM +0200, Francois Chenais wrote:
> > 	I can't install the msttcorefonts package
> > 	because of link error.
> 
> See bug #156503. It looks like msttcorefonts may be dead.

	Yes.  Microsoft has apparently discontinued their free fonts
program, circa 12 August 2002.  For more information, see:
http://www.microsoft.com/typography/default.asp

Simon

Message #22 received at 156503@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Stefano Zacchiroli <zack@cs.unibo.it>

To: 156503@bugs.debian.org

Cc: Debian Devel ML <debian-devel@lists.debian.org>

Subject: M$ true type fonts in non-free?

Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 10:44:21 +0200

Even if M$ has made unavailable for download true type fonts required by
msttcorefonts, the fonts license (as someone pointed out on the familiar
mailing list http://www.handhelds.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/familiar,
Message-ID: <15705.18118.653809.456033@scream.east.isi.edu>) seems to
permit redistribution.

This is the key point (reported by the poster on the ML, I haven't
checked it):

        Reproduction and Distribution. You may reproduce and
        distribute an unlimited number of copies of the SOFTWARE
        PRODUCT;  provided that each copy shall be a true and complete
        copy, including all copyright and trademark notices, and shall
        be accompanied by a copy of this EULA.  Copies of the SOFTWARE
        PRODUCT may not be distributed for profit either on a
        standalone basis or included as part of your own product.

We can move msttcorefonts to non-free and embed the fonts in it.
Fonts tarball is available at:
http://keithp.com/~keithp/fonts/truetype.tar.gz

Cheers.

-- 
Stefano Zacchiroli - undergraduate student of CS @ Univ. Bologna, Italy
zack@cs.unibo.it | ICQ# 33538863 | http://www.cs.unibo.it/~zacchiro
"I know you believe you understood what you think I said, but I am not
sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant!" -- G.Romney

Message #27 received at 156503@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Eric Sharkey <sharkey@netrics.com>

To: Stefano Zacchiroli <zack@cs.unibo.it>, 156503@bugs.debian.org

Cc: Debian Devel ML <debian-devel@lists.debian.org>

Subject: Re: Bug#156503: M$ true type fonts in non-free?

Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 08:47:31 -0400

> Even if M$ has made unavailable for download true type fonts required by
> msttcorefonts, the fonts license (as someone pointed out on the familiar
> mailing list http://www.handhelds.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/familiar,
> Message-ID: <15705.18118.653809.456033@scream.east.isi.edu>) seems to
> permit redistribution.

Yes, I know.  I haven't given up, but I don't want to jump to any
conclusions just yet.

> This is the key point (reported by the poster on the ML, I haven't
> checked it):
> 
>         Reproduction and Distribution. You may reproduce and
>         distribute an unlimited number of copies of the SOFTWARE
>         PRODUCT;  provided that each copy shall be a true and complete
>         copy, including all copyright and trademark notices, and shall
>         be accompanied by a copy of this EULA.  Copies of the SOFTWARE
>         PRODUCT may not be distributed for profit either on a
>         standalone basis or included as part of your own product.
> 
> We can move msttcorefonts to non-free and embed the fonts in it.
> Fonts tarball is available at:
> http://keithp.com/~keithp/fonts/truetype.tar.gz

Unfortunately, this isn't quite true.

There used to be more information about Microsoft's interprettation of
their own EULA on the font web page.  Since that page is gone, it's no
longer there, but the gist of it was that they were taking a very very
strict view of "a true and complete copy", to the extent that changing
the packaging of the fonts in any way (even just changing the filename
without changing the file contents) would make it no longer a true and
complete copy.  They were pretty clear on this point.

In other words, no tarballs allowed.  Distribution has to be in the form
of a collection of separate Windows 95 self-installing executables.

That's why I wrote the package as a contrib installer in the first place.
Embedding the fonts in the package would have been much simpler and
easier.

The question at this point is, how do we make distrubting such files
ourselves work logistically?  I can't dupload an exe to the debian
mirror system.  I could put the .exe's on people.debian.org under my
own account, but this isn't mirrored.

I may need to contact Microsoft for clarification of the terms of their
license.  I don't know why MS ended their font program, but if it's
because they felt that the interest of cross platform compatibility was
no longer in MS's best interest, then I don't expect them to be
particularly generous in their terms.  That's why I want to make sure
we follow this EULA to the strictest of possible standards.

Eric

Message #32 received at 156503@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Stefano Zacchiroli <zack@cs.unibo.it>

To: 156503@bugs.debian.org

Cc: Debian Devel ML <debian-devel@lists.debian.org>

Subject: Re: Bug#156503: M$ true type fonts in non-free?

Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 15:11:52 +0200

On Wed, Aug 14, 2002 at 08:47:31AM -0400, Eric Sharkey wrote:
> I may need to contact Microsoft for clarification of the terms of their
> license.  I don't know why MS ended their font program, but if it's
> because they felt that the interest of cross platform compatibility was
> no longer in MS's best interest, then I don't expect them to be
> particularly generous in their terms.  That's why I want to make sure
> we follow this EULA to the strictest of possible standards.

Anyway they had written "true and complete copy", don't trust their
current interpretation of the sentence, because surely M$ don't want to
distribute that fonts anymore.

I suggest to ask for a debian-legal interpretation of the sentence.
IANAL, but "true and complete copy" seems to me fullfilled if I embed
this true and complete copy in somewhat else (e.g. a tarball).

Cheers.

-- 
Stefano Zacchiroli - undergraduate student of CS @ Univ. Bologna, Italy
zack@cs.unibo.it | ICQ# 33538863 | http://www.cs.unibo.it/~zacchiro
"I know you believe you understood what you think I said, but I am not
sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant!" -- G.Romney

Message #37 received at 156503@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Bart Schuller <schuller@lunatech.com>

To: 156503@bugs.debian.org, Debian Devel ML <debian-devel@lists.debian.org>

Subject: Re: Bug#156503: M$ true type fonts in non-free?

Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 15:16:00 +0200

On Wed, Aug 14, 2002 at 08:47:31AM -0400, Eric Sharkey wrote:
> There used to be more information about Microsoft's interprettation of
> their own EULA on the font web page.  Since that page is gone, it's no
> longer there, but the gist of it was that they were taking a very very
> strict view of "a true and complete copy", to the extent that changing
> the packaging of the fonts in any way (even just changing the filename
> without changing the file contents) would make it no longer a true and
> complete copy.  They were pretty clear on this point.
> 
> In other words, no tarballs allowed.  Distribution has to be in the form
> of a collection of separate Windows 95 self-installing executables.

Then there should still be nothing wrong with packing all of those
.exe's in a tar file, for transport. The package would then be based on
the current installer package.

-- 
Bart.

Message #42 received at 156503@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Eric Sharkey <sharkey@netrics.com>

To: Bart Schuller <schuller@lunatech.com>, 156503@bugs.debian.org

Cc: Debian Devel ML <debian-devel@lists.debian.org>

Subject: Re: Bug#156503: M$ true type fonts in non-free?

Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 09:37:19 -0400

> On Wed, Aug 14, 2002 at 08:47:31AM -0400, Eric Sharkey wrote:
> > There used to be more information about Microsoft's interprettation of
> > their own EULA on the font web page.  Since that page is gone, it's no
> > longer there, but the gist of it was that they were taking a very very
> > strict view of "a true and complete copy", to the extent that changing
> > the packaging of the fonts in any way (even just changing the filename
> > without changing the file contents) would make it no longer a true and
> > complete copy.  They were pretty clear on this point.
> > 
> > In other words, no tarballs allowed.  Distribution has to be in the form
> > of a collection of separate Windows 95 self-installing executables.
> 
> Then there should still be nothing wrong with packing all of those
> .exe's in a tar file, for transport. The package would then be based on
> the current installer package.

The problem with copyright lawsuits is that the opinion of the defendant
has absolutely no bearing.  What matters is the opinion of the plaintiff,
who decides if a suit should be filed, and the opinion of the judge,
who decides who wins.

I don't want to end up in a position where I even need to think about the
opinion of a judge.

Here's the Web Fonts FAQ, care of archive.org:

http://web.archive.org/web/20020124073322/www.microsoft.com/typography/faq/faq8.htm

Note the following:

  * You may only redistribute the fonts in their original form
    (.exe or .sit.hqx) and with their original file name from your
    Web site or intranet site.
  * You must not supply the fonts, or any derivative fonts based on
    them, in any form that adds value to commercial products, such as
    CD-ROM or disk based multimedia programs, application software or
    utilities. See Microsoft's permissions site for more details.

This sounds pretty clear to me as to what their intent is with these fonts.
Encapsulation in a .tar runs against the first point, and in a .deb
may run against the second.

It's not a chance I'm willing to take.

Eric

Message #47 received at 156503@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Brian Ristuccia <brian@ristuccia.com>

To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org, debian-legal@lists.debian.org

Cc: 156503@bugs.debian.org

Subject: Re: Bug#156503: M$ true type fonts in non-free?

Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 16:54:35 -0400

On Wed, Aug 14, 2002 at 03:42:21PM -0400, Glenn Maynard wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 14, 2002 at 09:37:19AM -0400, Eric Sharkey wrote:
> > The problem with copyright lawsuits is that the opinion of the defendant
> > has absolutely no bearing.  What matters is the opinion of the plaintiff,
> > who decides if a suit should be filed, and the opinion of the judge,
> > who decides who wins.
> 
> I've seen plenty of statements to the contrary on debian-legal; that may
> be a better place for this.
> 

I've posted on the subject of copyright and typefaces before:

  In the United States and many other places, copyright registrations are
  allowed for typefaces only under very limited circumstances. Some outline
  fonts are subject to limited copyright restrictions because of hinting
  programs or other software embedded in the font. The output of those
  programs, once converted to a bitmap in order to typeset a document, is
  not a derived for work the purpose of copyright. By extension, an outline
  or bitmap font generated by examining a typeset document is also not a
  derived work.

I don't have exact citations, but anyone who's interested can probably find
all of the details by reading _Eltra Corp. v. Ringer_ and the Copyright
Revision Act of 1976.

There's a number of things in the TTF format which could be construed as
computer software for running state machines in the TTF rendering system,
and are thus subject to copyright restrictions. Redistributing those .ttf
files which were previously downloaded from Microsoft's web site without
their permission probably constitutes copyright infringement.

Microsoft's grant of permission, which they call an "End User License
Agreement", excludes both modified and for-profit distribution, and makes
their fonts non-free according to our Debian Free Software Guidelines. It
does, however, seem to grant permission to distribute unmodified versions of
the font files. Provided we don't distribute non-free on a for-profit basis,
which I'm fairly sure we don't, it seems we can distribute the fonts within
the limitations established by the license, and thus without infringing on
their copyright.

-- 
Brian Ristuccia
brian@ristuccia.com
bristucc@cs.uml.edu

Message #52 received at 156503@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Bastien Nocera <hadess@hadess.net>

To: Debian Bug Tracking System <156503@bugs.debian.org>

Subject: msttcorefonts: fonts still available from the ftp site

Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 17:27:00 +0100

Package: msttcorefonts
Version: 1.0.1
Followup-For: Bug #156503

The fonts are still available from the ftp site.

ftp://ftp.microsoft.com/developr/drg/truetype/

And people should be able to mirror them, the EULA permits it (as long
as no modifications are made to the packages).

Hope this helps

-- System Information:
Debian Release: testing/unstable
Architecture: powerpc
Kernel: Linux dozo 2.4.19-rc3-ben0 #1 Sat Jul 27 03:04:34 BST 2002 ppc
Locale: LANG=C, LC_CTYPE=C (ignored: LC_ALL set)

Versions of packages msttcorefonts depends on:
ii  cabextract                 0.5-1         a program to extract Microsoft Cab
ii  debconf                    1.1.22        Debian configuration management sy
ii  mawk [awk]                 1.3.3-9       a pattern scanning and text proces
ii  wget                       1.8.2-4       retrieves files from the web
ii  xutils                     4.2.0-0pre1v1 X Window System utility programs

-- debconf information excluded

Message #57 received at 156503@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Eric Sharkey <sharkey@netrics.com>

To: Bastien Nocera <hadess@hadess.net>, 156503@bugs.debian.org

Subject: Re: Bug#156503: msttcorefonts: fonts still available from the ftp site

Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 12:37:22 -0400

> Package: msttcorefonts
> Version: 1.0.1
> Followup-For: Bug #156503
> 
> The fonts are still available from the ftp site.
> 
> ftp://ftp.microsoft.com/developr/drg/truetype/

Interesting.  I wonder how long they'll stay there...

> And people should be able to mirror them, the EULA permits it (as long
> as no modifications are made to the packages).

Right.  It's just a matter of coordinating with the FTP masters to find
a location for these files.

Eric

Message #62 received at 156503@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Juliusz Chroboczek <jch@pps.jussieu.fr>

To: 156503@bugs.debian.org

Cc: michaelc@lindows.com

Subject: B&H fonts

Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 21:14:41 +0200 (CEST)

> There is also the issue of the Bigelow and Holmes fonts in xfree86,
> which are licensed under a non free license which restricts
> modification. Branden Robinson and Juliusz Chroboczek already
> contacted them to discuss licensing, and received no response.

This is not true.  Please do read my reply to your mail to debian-x.

> I think we should try again.

I humbly disagree, but who am I to know.  Please make sure you have
read my reply to your mail on debian-x before you undertake this.

                                        Juliusz

Message #67 received at 156503@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: psmith@gnu.org

To: 156503@bugs.debian.org

Subject: Re: Bug#156503: msttcorefonts: fonts still available from the ftp site

Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 02:43:36 -0400

> > ftp://ftp.microsoft.com/developr/drg/truetype/

> Interesting.  I wonder how long they'll stay there...

> > And people should be able to mirror them, the EULA permits it (as long
> > as no modifications are made to the packages).

> Right.  It's just a matter of coordinating with the FTP masters to find
> a location for these files.

FYI, there is a SourceForge site that contains these fonts in their
original form:

  http://corefonts.sourceforge.net/

One solution, at least for the short term, would be to simply modify the
current Debian package to wget them from the SF site rather than the
Microsoft site.

This is clearly allowed by the EULA, I believe (after all, if it was
allowed to download them from the Microsoft site it's clearly allowed to
download those same files, in the same way, from some other site).


In the longer term, maybe debian-legal can decide whether we can include
the fonts in a .deb or not.

-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Paul D. Smith <psmith@gnu.org>          Find some GNU make tips at:
 http://www.gnu.org                      http://make.paulandlesley.org
 "Please remain calm...I may be mad, but I am a professional." --Mad Scientist

Message #72 received at 156503@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: "toby cabot" <toby@caboteria.org>

To: "Debian Bug Tracking System" <156503@bugs.debian.org>

Subject: msttcorefonts: still available (just not from MS)

Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 17:45:24 -0400

Package: msttcorefonts
Version: 1.0.1
Followup-For: Bug #156503

Hi, I think that you can still get the fonts at:
http://corefonts.sourceforge.net/

-- System Information:
Debian Release: testing/unstable
Architecture: i386
Kernel: Linux dickless 2.4.18-ltsp-1 #3 Sat Jun 22 19:51:48 EDT 2002 i686
Locale: LANG=C, LC_CTYPE=C

Versions of packages msttcorefonts depends on:
ii  cabextract                    0.5-1      a program to extract Microsoft Cab
ii  debconf                       1.1.27     Debian configuration management sy
ii  gawk [awk]                    1:3.1.1-1  GNU awk, a pattern scanning and pr
ii  mawk [awk]                    1.3.3-9    a pattern scanning and text proces
ii  wget                          1.8.2-5    retrieves files from the web
ii  xutils                        4.1.0-17   X Window System utility programs

-- debconf information excluded

Message #77 received at 156503@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Andreas Neudecker <a.neudecker@gmx.net>

To: Debian Bug Tracking System <156503@bugs.debian.org>

Subject: msttcorefonts: Correct URI for tgz + new problem

Date: 30 Aug 2002 22:10:11 +0200

Hi.

Just encountered the same problem, too. Checked for the tgz mentioned by
Stefano Zacchiroli. The URI had a typo: Correct URI for the tgz is

	http://keithp.com/~keithp/fonts/msfonts.tar.gz

Just downloaded it and tried to install with the option of entering a
local directory (in my case: /home/archives/mscorefonts). This doesn't
work. I entered the directory exactly as given, but the installation
script will not do the expected, it will exit with an exit status 100.

Regards


Andreas



-- 
[de] Das Museum fuer falsche Fehlermeldungen: http://www.moffem.de/
[de] Suchen im Internet:     http://privat.schlund.de/BesserSuchen/
[en] The Museum Of Faulty Error Messages:     http://www.moffem.de/

Message #82 received at 156503@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Bas Zoetekouw <bas@o2w.nl>

To: 156503@bugs.debian.org, 156577@bugs.debian.org

Cc: control@bugs.debian.org

Subject: fix for msttcorefonts

Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 14:55:24 +0200

tag 156503 + patch
tag 156577 + patch
thanks

Hi!

Since the fonts are available from sourceforge, here's a simple fix to
the problem. It's tested and works very well.

diff -Naur ./msttcorefonts-1.0.0.old/update-ms-fonts ./msttcorefonts-1.0.0/update-ms-fonts
--- ./msttcorefonts-1.0.0.old/update-ms-fonts	Wed Dec 12 20:47:30 2001
+++ ./msttcorefonts-1.0.0/update-ms-fonts	Thu Sep  5 14:52:14 2002
@@ -32,7 +32,7 @@
 EXITCODE=0
 
 # Base URL for Microsoft fonts
-URLROOT="http://www.microsoft.com/typography/downloads/"
+URLROOT="http://belnet.dl.sourceforge.net/sourceforge/corefonts/"
 
 if [ -z "$QUIET_MODE" ] ; then
 echo "

-- 
Kind regards,
+---------------------------------------------------------------+
| Bas Zoetekouw                  | Si l'on sait exactement ce   |
|--------------------------------| que l'on va faire, a quoi    |
| zoetekw@phys.uu.nl             | bon le faire?                |
|    bas@A-Es2.uu.nl             |               Pablo Picasso  |
+---------------------------------------------------------------+ 

Message #89 received at 156503-close@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Eric Sharkey <sharkey@debian.org>

To: 156503-close@bugs.debian.org

Subject: Bug#156503: fixed in msttcorefonts 1.1.0

Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2002 21:33:21 -0400

We believe that the bug you reported is fixed in the latest version of
msttcorefonts, which is due to be installed in the Debian FTP archive:

msttcorefonts_1.1.0.dsc
  to pool/contrib/m/msttcorefonts/msttcorefonts_1.1.0.dsc
msttcorefonts_1.1.0.tar.gz
  to pool/contrib/m/msttcorefonts/msttcorefonts_1.1.0.tar.gz
msttcorefonts_1.1.0_all.deb
  to pool/contrib/m/msttcorefonts/msttcorefonts_1.1.0_all.deb



A summary of the changes between this version and the previous one is
attached.

Thank you for reporting the bug, which will now be closed.  If you
have further comments please address them to 156503@bugs.debian.org,
and the maintainer will reopen the bug report if appropriate.

Debian distribution maintenance software
pp.
Eric Sharkey <sharkey@debian.org> (supplier of updated msttcorefonts package)

(This message was generated automatically at their request; if you
believe that there is a problem with it please contact the archive
administrators by mailing ftpmaster@debian.org)


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Format: 1.7
Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2002 20:55:10 -0400
Source: msttcorefonts
Binary: msttcorefonts
Architecture: source all
Version: 1.1.0
Distribution: unstable
Urgency: low
Maintainer: Eric Sharkey <sharkey@debian.org>
Changed-By: Eric Sharkey <sharkey@debian.org>
Description: 
 msttcorefonts - Installer for Microsoft TrueType core fonts
Closes: 100566 146281 147395 156503
Changes: 
 msttcorefonts (1.1.0) unstable; urgency=low
 .
   * integrate with defoma, Closes: #100566
   * rerun update-fonts-scale on postrm, Closes: #146281
   * Fix potential namespace collisions, Closes: #147395
   * Change base URL, Closes: #156503
   * Move installed font list to /var/state
Files: 
 2ba7bcd3a89b400cb7a7a7aa9e6e44fe 505 contrib/graphics optional msttcorefonts_1.1.0.dsc
 283ccc315cc6e0e3007d59b29f5d4551 14243 contrib/graphics optional msttcorefonts_1.1.0.tar.gz
 5fab8c57efe900c70066386f6ad6352b 15160 contrib/graphics optional msttcorefonts_1.1.0_all.deb

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